HomeMy WebLinkAboutBrazos Valley ItaliansBRAZOS VAtt~Y
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College St~ti~», Texas 77~~s-46c~3
1996
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Preface
Map of Sicily, showing locations of Poggioreale, Salaparuta and Corleone.
Map of western portion of Brazos County, Texas, showing location of Mudville
(Steele's Store. ).
Page
Mr. Sam Lampo (With comments by daughter, Mr. Luke (Jobey) Ruffino) ............................1
Mr. John Sam Lampo ............................................................................................................ ..17
Mrs. Josephine Angonia (With comments by son, Don Angonia and lus wife,
Bazbaza) ............................................................................................................................ ..25
Mrs. Lena DiMazia Canavespe and daughter, Lena Mae Canavespe (With an occasional
..........................................................
comment by Mrs
Josephine Ruffmo)
. ..41
.
...........
........
Mrs. Josephine Frances Perrone Patranella (With comments by Chazles Marco Patranella
and Joseph C. Patranella) .................................................................................................. ..57
Mr. Joseph C. Patranella (With comments by Chazles Marco Patranella and Josephine
Patranella ......................................................................................................................... ..75
Mrs. Annie Mae Canatella (With comments by Chazles Marco Patranella and Josephine
and Joseph C. Patranella ................................................................................................... ..97
Mrs. Luke (Jobey) Ruffmo .................................................................................................... 117
Mrs. John Marino (With comments by John Marino and Josephine Lampo Ruffino) .......... 133
Mr. John E. Marino (With comments by his wife, Mary Lena, and Josephine Lampo
Ruffino) ............................................................................................................................. 139
Mrs. Rosalie Scazmazdo ......................................................................................................... 145
Mrs. Rosie Patranella Shimen (With comments by Bonnie Patranella Grizzaffi) ................ 159
Mrs. Josephine Emola Patranella ........................................................................................... 165
Mrs. Bonnie Patranella Grizzaffi (With comments by Rosie Patranella Shimen) ................ 171
Mrs. Janie Emola Cangelose .................................................................................................. 179
Mrs. Sally Ponzio Lampo ......................................................................................................189
Mrs. Lena Bush Salvaggio ..................................................................................................... 201
Mrs. Pauline Scarpinato Stratta .............................................................................................207
Mrs. Ethelena Salvato Zubik .................................................................................................213
Mrs. Sarah Perrone Fachorn .................................................................................................. 223
Mrs. Lula Mae Perrone ..........................................................................................................235
Miss Mary Degelia and brother, Mr. Frank Degelia, Jr .........................................................243
Mr. Barney Cotrone ...............................................................................................................251
Mrs. Josephine Salvato Varisco.... ..................................................................................257
......
Mr. Luke Pete Scamardo and his wife, Mary Varisco Scamazdo ..........................................265
PREFACE
According to the 1870 United States Census Records of Brazos County, the earliest Italian
immigrant arrived in Brazos County in the late 1860s. By 1911, the Italians of the Brazos
Valley were considered to be the largest Italian agricultural immigrant settlement in the United
States. Originating primarily from three villages in Sicily, Corleone, Salapazuta and
Poggioreale, many of these early arrivals settled in the Brazos "Bottoms." However, those
settling in the Steele's Store community (formerly known as "Mudville") were mostly from
Poggioreale. Steele's Store is located some ten miles west of Bryan and about two miles north
on FM Road #50 from its intersection with Highway #21. Many of the descendants of the
original settlers remain there today, in spite of the many devastating floods which plagued the
area from the late 1800s until 1941 when a dam was built on the Brazos River.
Prior to the writing of The Italians of Steele's Store. Texas (Ericson Books, 1614 Redbud
St. Nacogdoches, Texas 75961-2936) in 1993, I conducted a series of interviews with persons
of Italian heritage who were either currently living in Steele's Store, who had lived there eazlier
or whose ancestors had settled there. Contained within are transcriptions of those interviews.
Respondents were given an opportunity to review these before publication for the purpose of
approving the content, as well as correcting any errors in transcribing.
Not all of the information here will be found in the above-mentioned publication, and for
that reason, I felt that it should still be presented to the libraries for the use of those interested in
the history of the Brazos Valley Italians.
Again, I want to express my sincere appreciation to those persons interviewed for taking
the time to assist me in this endeavor.
Rosemary DePasquale Boykin
College Station, Texas
1996
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Map of western portion of Brazos County, Texas, showing location of Mudville (Steele's
Store). (Taken from Map of Brazos County with Bryan, College Station & Texas A&M
University, 1989. Mass Marketing Inc., Merchant Maps Division, MM Merchant Maps,
Cincinnati, Ohio)
oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mr. Sam J. Lampo (SL), with comments by daughter, Mrs. Luke (Jobey)
Ruffmo (JR).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin
Date: April 18, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Where were you born, Mr. Lampo?
SL: Bryan, Brazos County, Texas, August 2, 1900.
Reb: Who were your parents?
5L: John Lampo and Josephine Guagliardo Lampo.
Reb: Where were they born?
SL: They were born in Sicily, in Corleone.
Reb: What are some of your earliest memories of your parents?
SL: Well, my father, before he came to the United States, went into the army in Italy. He
was there two and a half years, which was a half year less than what was compulsory, because
he was a sharp shooter. His company won the shooting match every year while he was there.
And for that they gave him six months early leave. The first thing he did was go home to lus
mother, his father has passed away when he was very young. His mother passed away a few
days later. He married my mother and they stayed in Italy maybe not quite a year, and then
moved. They had brothers-in-law and my mother had sisters here, and they were writing each
other, and they told them this was a good country. They could own their own farm and they
could rent and farm for themselves instead of working for somebody else.
Reb: How do you think they heard about this? Through the newspapers?
5L: Well, at one time the United States had advertised for foreigners to come to the U.S.
They needed people in Louisiana to cut (sugar)cane and that's where they landed, in the Port of
New Orleans. They went right to the plantations and the next day went to work at fifty cents a
day. At night they would squeeze the juice off the sugar cane and he would work until twelve
midnight on that and he would make a quarter. So he would make seventy-five cents by
working eighteen hours a day.
Reb: How many children did your parents have when they came over?
SL: They just had Bessie.
Reb: How long were they in New Orleans?
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SL: They were in New Orleans nine years and had three children. Ben was the oldest, Tony
was the next oldest and I had a sister named Lena. Then they moved to Brazos County.
Reb: What would have been the date of that move?
SL: They came to New Orleans in about 1873, and they stayed there nine years so that made
it 1892 when they arrived in Texas.
Reb: Then they would have been in the Brazos Valley when the heavy flooding took place.
SL: They missed the flooding by one year. They lived in the bottoms in 1888 and they made
a crop there and started on another one and the crop was so bad that they left it.
Reb: Was this a cotton crop?
SL: Yes. The flood was in 1899 and they just missed it. They had just gotten out and
moved. Someone had some land to rent and I think it was old man Lobello and they rented a
few acres of land and farmed on half, because they didn't have any teams.
Reb: Do you know where that was located?
SL: That was located between Bryan and the railroad bypass, between Bryan and Caldwell.
It was about three miles out of the city limits at that tune.
Reb: Would that have been anywhere near Mumford or Steele's Store?
SL: No, they never did live in Mumford. This was about 3 miles out of the city. At that time
it was about 10 or 12 miles to Steele°s Store.
Reb: When they came to the Brazos Valley did they try to settle near other families from
Corleone, as well?
SL: Yes, wherever they could get a piece of land. The first thing they did when they landed
was to stay awhile with their kinfolk. This was Jim Woodyard's family, Gasper Woodyard's
family.
Reb: Was that in New Orleans?
SL: No, that was in Bryan. Bonnie Carrobba married my mother's sister and she had two
sisters and two brothers.
JR: I think it is interesting to know that some of the businessmen in the Bryan area had long
advertised, as he said, ran ads in the European newspapers, for immigrants to come and help
revitalize the local economy. Immigration was facilitated by the advance of the railroad through
Brazos County from 1867-1869. I am reading excerpts from Valentine Belfiglio's book
(Italian Experience in Texa Eakin Press 1983). He says that "in addition, the citizens of
Brazos County built an immigration house in Bryan for the convenience of newly-arrived
prospective settlers." He also says, "Italians did not begin arriving in Brazos County in large
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numbers until about 1880. They came primarily from three small farming communities in
Sicily named Poggioreale, Corleone, and Salaparuta."
Reb: So, the Italians have been in this area for a little over a hundred years, then, if they came
about 1882.
SL: Well, those uncles of mine were here about four or five years before my daddy came.
They didn't stop in Louisiana, they came directly into Texas. They bought land and when we
came they had already bought land.
Reb: Usually some of the relatives came first and got established and then sent for the rest of
the family to come.
SL: But, my family all came together. They brought one girl, my oldest sister, then she had
two boys and a girl in Louisiana.
Reb: What about living conditions at that time? How did they find living in this area? Did
they find it was very different from Sicily?
5L: All :the difference in the world. Of course, in New Orleans, my daddy had to work hard,
but everybody was friendly, the boss was friendly. They loved them because they worked,
they were used to working hard in Sicily and when they went to work, they worked until they
almost .fell. The bosses would ride around on horses and talk to them. There were hardly any
local laborers, most of them had jobs in the cities and stayed there.
Reb: So were you born out on their farm?
SL: No, in 1902, my daddy bought one hundred and seven acres of land and it was on the
Dilly Shaw Tap, between Little Wickson and Big Wickson Creek. We had to go through land
to get to our land because we (our land) didn't come all the way to Dilly Shaw Tap and we had
to go through land to get to the road. I was two years old when we bought this place because I
was born in 1900. And I always like to mention, when I do something like this, a friend of the
Italian people, who was Sam Parker, Sr. He had a cotton gin and he had a lumberyard. The
gin is no longer there, but the lumberyard is still here, but it is still Parker Lumber Company.
There are no more Parkers living here.
Reb: Is that located in Bryan?
SL: In Bryan, yes, When my daddy got ready to buy this land, he negotiated for it with a
man named Jack Mitchell. He wanted a thousand dollars for the 107 acres. So my daddy had
accumulated from a sharecrop, two hundred dollars. He went to Mr. Parker, because he used
to gin the cotton with him, and he knew him and he always tried to help him. He helped him
during the election, even though it wasn't compulsory that you had citizenship papers. They
voted for Mr. Parker...you know they asked him (Mr. Lampo's father) to vote and, of course,
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they voted for whomever he (Mr. Parker) wanted then to vote for. Anyway, he went to Mr.
Parker and said, "I've got $200 I want to pay down on 107 acres that I am buying from Jack
Mitchell." Mr. Parker said, "John, I'll loan you the rest of the money, but what are you going
to eat during the rest of the year?" My daddy said, "Well, there's an Italian store here, Mr.
Saladino and Mr. Lobello, that I can buy on credit for a year from them." Mr. Parker said,
"No, they'll charge you too much. Let me loan you the $1000 and make your crop with that
$200. I'll just loan you the whole $1000 and make your crop with that $200. I'll just loan you
the whole $1000." Well, my daddy took him up on it, and this land we bought had a lot of
woods.
Reb: Now is this the land on the Dilly Shaw Tap Road?
SL: The Dilly Shaw Tap, and I had two brothers that were old enough to work, by that time.
They cut wood and brought it to the gin and sold it. And at that time wood was $2.25 a cord
and they made two trips a day. We had accumulated about five or six mules and horses. We
paid for the land in two years and we made it all off of that wood. They'd haul the wood in the
winter when we couldn't work in the field.
Reb: So he gave your family the start that they needed, didn't he?
SL: Yes, he did.
Reb: The famung that you did, was it solely cotton?
SL: Cotton and corn. Corn to feed the mules and ground for ourselves to make cornbread.
We'd go to the grist mill and have fifty pounds of corn ground and take it home and when we
ran out, we'd shuck some more corn and take it and get some more.
Reb: What about watering in those days? What kind of irrigation system did you have?
5L: We didn't have any irrigation. In those days the Lord was good to us. The grain needed
rain and the land was good land, sandy and it held moisture. But for drinking water we drilled
a well, about sixty-five feet, the water wasn't too good to drink, but it was good to water the
stock. And then we built a wooden cistern, and we used that. We put gutters on the house and
the water would go into the cistern....but it made mosquitoes.
Reb: Did you use little filters on the faucets?
SL: No. It was an underground cistern, it wasn't above ground. We found that we could
put a couple of tablespoons full of kerosene in the water and it would keep the mosquitoes out.
The bugs wouldn°t hatch, and when you got your water, you'd let your bucket go down, then
pull it up fast and that kerosene would separate. And later on my brother built a concrete one,
underground, also.
Reb: Did your family make soap like most rural families did in those days?
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SL: Let me put it this way. We bought flour, except the cornmeal...we had our own
cornmeal...but, we bought sugar, coffee, and the rest of it we raised. There may be an item or
two that we had to buy.
Reb: I suppose you had a vegetable garden?
SL: Yes.
Reb: What about meat? I suppose you raised your own beef, did you?
SL: For a long time we had cottontail rabbits and we had some dogs that would catch them
and bring them home. And then would go hunting, we had all kinds of meat and all kinds of
chickens.
Reb: And hogs, probably?
5L: And once a year we'd raise a hog that would weigh eight or nine hundred pounds. And
we'd take what little meat we could get and we'd grind it into sausage and we made lard from
the rest of it. Sometimes if it lasted longer than a year it would get rancid and we'd put it in
crocks or we'd get lard cans from the store. We had our own lard and we had our own dried
meat. We'd make sausage and dry it up in the smoke house.
Reb: Did you make your own tomato paste?
5L: Yes, we would sun dry it outside on a big old board and, every once in a while, the sun
would get too hot and we'd stir it up a little bit. And then it would become real thick and we
could make it into a ball. And then we would put it into a crock jar. When we needed it we
would get a little bit and dissolve it in water. Nothing like we eat now. I don't think I could eat
it now. In those days you had to do the best you could.
Reb: Did you make your own wine?
SL: My daddy bought wine from Louisiana from a guy named Nunzio Munnina. And we
never ran out of wine. He knew when we were just about out and he would send us another
barrel. Especially on feast days or other holidays, he (my father) would draw a pitcher of wine
for the table and we'd drink it with our meal. When we had company we always served wine.
Reb: I guess that was good Italian red wine, wasn't it?
SL: Red wine and it was good.
Reb: How long did you attend school, Mr. Lampo?
SL: I didn't have too much schooling, because we had to help on the farm and my brother,
God rest his soul, he helped and he did a lot of my work so that I could go to school. I went to
Knob Prairie School and school was so bad, it didn't have any windows or nothing on it.
Reb: Was that Knob Prairie?
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SL: Yes, and it was on Wilcox Lane. And we had to go through the fields and had to go
about two miles to school. We didn't belong to any particular district, my daddy had
transferred, because if we went to our district school we would have had to cross a creek, and
if it rained, we couldn't get back home. So we were transferred to Knob Prairie School, but
then later on the school (building) got so bad, they knocked it down and built it in another place
and school was too far then for us to go there so they transferred us to Wickson Creek School.
Reb: What would have been the approximate location of Knob Prairie School?
SL: On Wilcox Lane, about a half a mile from Tabor Road. Northeast of Bryan.
Reb: What was the name of the second school...the one that was rebuilt?
5L: That was called Prospect School, but there was another school on the other side of
Wickson Creek. I went there until the seventh grade. That`s all they taught.
Reb: To Prospect School or Wickson Creek?
SL: Prospect. I graduated from the seventh grade.
Reb: What was your first paying job away from the family?
5L: My first job was after I got married in 1920. But first, I want to tell you about how we
used to make our little Christmas change. We'd pick our cotton, we worked late, we had
neighbors who still had a lot of cotton to pick and we'd go to help them. and they would pay
us one dollar per hundred pounds. First, they started for fifty cents per hundred pounds, and
there were three of us picking cotton. We'd make a hundred to a hundred and fifty dollars
during the off-season. And then sometime we'd go to Steele's Store and pick over there for
some friends. Then, in 1920, I got married. The first year we farmed on my father-in-law's
land. He had 546 acres of land, scattered, some of it was neighbors to where we used to live.
I moved into his house, in the meantime he had moved to town. We lived in his house the first
year. then we made a pretty good crop. And I paid all my debts of money I had borrowed to
make my crop. My second year, I stayed there and made a profit with my brother-in-law, and
we made a good crop. Then a friend of mine and of the family, John Carrabba, had a good
little piece of land that he wanted to rent. And it occurred to me to rent this land. It was in
1923 and I farmed that year and made fourteen bales of cotton. Cotton was bringing $140 a
bale. But I had to give him a fourth. Anyway, when that crop was over I had $1400 and,
guess what the first thing was that I did when I moved into town.
Reb: I can't imagine!
SL: I bought a car. A Model T Ford! No starter, you had to crank it with your hands.
Reb: I~id it have a front and a back seat to it?
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SL: Yes, it was a touring car. Later on, I had a starter put on it when they got where they
could put starters on. But for a long time I had to crank it with my hands.
Reb: That was probably one of the first cars in the Brazos Valley.
SL: Well, we had bought a car before we got married, when I was single. You see, I was
seventeen years old. In 1918 my brother went into the service and I went azound here and
yonder and I tore up the car. So when my brother came back he was not happy. He got
married in 1919 and my middle brother married in 1917 and he didn't have to go to war. He
moved to El Paso and then to Dallas and stayed in Dallas until he died
Reb: You mentioned going to Steele's Store to pick cotton for some friends there. Do you
recall their names?
SL: One of them was Tony Genaro and one was John Marino. That Marino is still here.
They are John and Nell Marino. She is the young lady who distributes Holy Communion (at
St. Anthony's Catholic Church). Pretty girl. This is a different John Marino from John and
Mary Lena Marino.
Reb: How long did you farm?
SL: Just three years. When I farmed at Mr. Carrobba's place that yeaz I got a job working
.for Lawrence Grocery Company, a wholesale grocer's house, Lawrence and cotton brokerage.
We handled cotton for the farmers and also sold to the retail stores.
Reb: Was that here in Bryan?
SL: Yes, on Main Street.
Reb: And how long were you at that job?
SL: Twenty-three years. I started at the bottom and I worked my way up to be manager of
the whole thing.
JR: What was your boss's name, Dad?
SL: The boss's name was John Lawrence..John M. Lawrence. They had put another man
who had more experience and more education than I had. But it went to his head and he was
treating the salesmen bad. And you know, Hime (sp?) Downard, he was a good fella, but
when he got that high position it went to his head and he was fussing. By that time, rationing
came in and you had to be good to your salesman who called on you.
Reb: So then this was during World War II, then?
SL: Yes. They had an allotment for everybody, but somehow it was not always available to
everybody. Finally, Mr. Lawrence told the bookkeeper that I would be put in chazge. And I got
back of that desk.
JR: When did Mr. Walker, Mills P. Walker, come into the picture?
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SL: It was Mr. Walker who told...well ... the deal was that I would buy the stuff, but when
we had any bookings to do, when we booked carloads and cazloads of stuff, we would book
them ahead of time. If you wanted a cazload of tomatoes, cazload of peas, ..see, I didn't want
all that responsibility. So Mr. Walker would come in with me, so that when a salesman would
tell him about booking, I'd call him..he was the main bookkeeper, the head bookkeeper. And
he would help me, because you could buy a cazload of peas and maybe half of them were left
you couldn°t sell.
JR: When did you become a salesman, Dad?
SL: I became a salesman when one of the other salesman quit. And I want to say that, not to
brag, but that guy was selling $7000 a month and when they put me there, I sold $21,000 the
first month, and they were paying me a half a cent of the profit (one half of one percent). They
wouldn't give me one percent because then I would be making more money than the manager.
They had another manager then.
Reb: Where did you travel when you were doing this, did you have to travel out of Brazos
County?
SL: Oh, yes. I had to travel all the way. The farthest place I had to go was Normangee,
which was about fifty miles and to Madisonville. To the south I would go to Navasota,
Dobbin, Montgomery and Tomball and a few little towns. I don't remember their names. And
in 1946 they sold out to Kimble. I was one of the few salesmen Kimble kept. They kept one
or two others, but since I was a salesman, my job was eliminated, the one I had before I was a
salesman. The business was called Kimble Grocery Company. And they moved...they already
had a warehouse here, and they moved to the warehouse. They gave me 20 percent of the
profit, instead of one and a half the profit like I had with Lawrence. They gave me 20 percent
and $500 a month guaranteed. That was a lot of money.
Reb: Xes.
SL: And I never clid stop at that. I always made a little more. But I had to furnish my own
car and my own gasoline. And the car was fifty dollars a month, So I really made a good
move then.
Reb: What kind of things did you sell?
5L: Beans, potatoes, flour, ...just all kinds of grocery items.
Reb: Would these be sold to private families or to other stores?
SL: Other stores. We were a wholesaler. We sold to the retailer. And I had my eyes open
for a retail store, because I loved the retail business. I had never been in the retail business, but
I had been in them everyday since I was 23 yeazs old and I had my eyes on a grocery store,
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and one day I went in to call on one of the retailers, his name was Charlie Ball. And he, out of
the blue sky said, "Sam, let me sell you this place." I said, "Let me talk to my boss, and
maybe, if he'd go in with me, maybe we'll buy you out if your price is right." He says, "We'll
take inventory, at retail price, and give you 20 percent off." So, that's fine. I talked to Johnnie
and he was willing to go. And he said, "I'll take $3500 for the pictures." I had saved up to
$7000 all this time I had been working. And that was $3500 for the groceries and $3500 for
the pictures. We started making money from the first day we opened up.
Reb: What did you call your business?
SL: Lampo & Son. And we had a Sinclair filling station, that the rent was $125 and the
profit on the gasoline, I had a young boy running it forme, paid the rent and a lot more. We
were getting a little more for gas, because we had our own pump. The pumps were ours, we
bought the pumps from Ball.
Reb: Where was this store and service station located? What part of Bryan?
SL: West of Bryan and its where the Highway 21 and 25th Street turns left to go to Caldwell.
And one road goes to the right, goes to the Sandy Point Road You ever been to the Catalinas?
Do you know the Catalinas?
Reb: I know of them, but I haven't been out to their place. I do know Sandy Point Road.
SL: Well, the one road went to Sandy Point Road and one road went to Highway #21. The
store was right on that corner.
Reb: Now, was this the grocery store or the Sinclair Station.
SL: The station was attached to the grocery store. We just had to get out the door and it was
right there.
Reb: Were you living anywhere close to that, as well?
SL: We rented Mr. Ball's house that he lived in. It was right across the street. We were
spending $35 a month rent for the house. Johnnie and I both lived in there. And Johnnie had
his three kids born in my house. When I retired from the wholesale business I bought out
Chazlie Ball. I was sixty-two yeazs old and I had Social Security, but they paid so little I
couldn't make a living on it. So I had a Godchild, named Bonnie Morrow, and his daddy was
my compare, (Godfather). He asked me one day, °'Why don't you go to work for Bonnie. He
needs someone to take orders for him on the phone?" So I called him and he told me,
"Godfather, I want you to take care of my place, sell meat there." He had a little market there.
"Sell meat there and answer the phone and take orders. I can't pay you much, but I can pay
you fifty dollars a week." Man, that was more than I had been making for a long time, when I
was working for Lawrence Grocery Company. So I went to work for him for about a year and
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a half and he went broke. Really, he didn't really go broke, he just wasn't doing too good,
and he just closed up. And I was going around the country selling meat for him during that
time. In the meantime, Johnnie built a little grocery store. No, another man built it and he was
a lieutenant colonel in the army, and he depended on his wife to help him in the store. She got
pregnant and he wanted to sell it, so he sold it to Johnnie.
Reb: Your son, John?
SL: My son and we had a good friend that just died not too long ago, Pat Ponzio, Johnnie
hired. him to help us and we ran that store for eight or nine years. Wasn't it, Jobey? Didn°t Pat
run Johnnie's store for about eight years and then Kimbel bought it out.
JR: I don't remember that.
5L: So, when Kimbel bought the store out, Johnnie was in business with them, with Luke
and Jobey Ruffino. They separated and Johnnie opened up a fish and chips place, Alphie's. It
wasn°t any good. People didn°t go for it. See, in England, it was all right, but people here
didn't go for that kind of stuff. So, he made it into a bakery shop, and I worked there with
Johnnie for a year and a half.
Reb: What was the bakery shop called?
SL: The Farmer's Market and Bakery. It was a chain, that is, the Farmer's Market was a
chain and they added another name to it, but I forgot what it was. But Johnnie just made it
Farmer's Market and Bakery. And that was when I retired.
Reb: Can you tell me some of the home remedies that you remember, that your mother used
to use when you got sick?
SL: Well, castor oil was our main medicine.
Reb: What about plasters for the kids? Like mustard plasters?
SL: We didn't use those. We just rubbed with turpentine, We didn't have Vicks in those
days.
Reb: Was the turpentine mixed with anything?
SL: No.
Reb: What about for burns?
SL: I don°t remember.
JR: Did you use lard or something?
5L: Yes, we used lard. But castor oil was the old standby.
Reb: What about stomachaches?
5L: Well, we worked them out. They used to use a lot of olive oil.
Reb: What about church?
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SL: We always went to church every Sunday, even with the horse and buggies and mules.
Reb: What church did you attend?
SL: St. Anthony's Church, but it wasn't at the place where it is now. It was close to St.
Joseph's Church on Polk Street. That St. Anthony's burned. That church was built before I
was born, in 1896. We were without a priest for a long time because we made the Bishop
mad, because we didn't like the priests he was sending us. Finally, we got Father Bravi from
Italy and he was like Father John (Malinowski) and he took over. What he said went.
Reb: Where did the Italians go to church before 1876?
SL: Well, St. Joseph's Church was at least fifteen years ahead of our church.
Reb: So, in all probability, they went to St. Joseph's then.
SL: Yes, and a lot of them didn't go. My Aunt Carrie was a really religious woman. We
hadn't been in the habit of saying the Rosary every night, but when we went to her house, she
had Rosary beads for everyone of her kids, and she had about eight kids. And when I got
there she gave me one, too. And we'd say the Rosary every night. My father-in-law was the
same way. They had to say the rosary together every night.
Reb: Have you had St. Joseph's Altars here for a long time?
SL: Yes, as long as I can remember. It was a custom brought over from Sicily.
Reb: You were saying that your pazents were born in Corleone? And Jobey mentioned
Salaparuta, and also, Poggioreale. Those three groups of people, I understand, really did not
visit among themselves too much before they came over here. They were sort of separated.
SL: There was a little friction between the Corleonese and the Poggiorealese because they
(Poggiorealese) speak a clearer Italian language than we do. Our language in Corleone is not
so refined. Theirs is almost true Italian.
Reb: What about the people from Salaparuta?
5L: I don't know where they came from. There was one man in the "Bottoms" that came
from Salaparuta. I don't even know where that place is.
Reb: Well, it's suppose to be about ten or twelve miles from Corleone.
SL: The man I know is Joe Emmite. He was a big talker and when they built the church, I
think he had something to do with obtaining the land. But they even named it his patron saint
of Salaparuta, and they called it San Salvador. It is still standing. It should have a mission of
Saint Anthony and I guess it is. All the priests used to go there once a month to say Mass.
They had to go in a buggy and a lot of times they couldn't get there, because the roads were so
bad, no paved streets, no graveled streets nowhere.
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I just thought about something else. For many, many years the Poggiorealese and
Corleonese wouldn°t intermarry. My cousin, Joe Cash, was about the first one and Lena
Woodyard. He was Poggiorealese and my cousins was a Corleonese. They just couldn't get
together. I asked a lot of people, °'What is the difference? They're all Italians? It's only a few
mules from Corleone to Poggioreale.°' They finally did get together and they had a big
wedding, too.
Reb: I would like to know something about your wife.
JR: My mother was a good cook and a good mother. I remember that when I was in school I
could pick up the phone and call her and say, "Mother, guess what happened?"...and she'd be
there in a minute with a car....or "Mother, I°m bringing so and so to lunch, can you pick us up
earlier today?" She was there. She was good mother, a good wife, sweet friend and a
wonderful church worker. With her lack of education she had more love in one little finger
than most people have in their whole lifetime. I still miss her. The thing that stands out in my
rrund, too, with her, besides being a wonderful mother, with all of her tender loving care is that
she was so good to my father...she treated him like a king and I'm still doing it. With her gone
now, he is still treated like a king and I wouldn't trade having him stay with me, I love having
him in my home and Luke (husband) does, too.
Reb: To backtrack, Mr. Lampo, would you tell me how you met your wife?
5L: My brother went to the army in 1918, but he was so much older than me he was my boss
and when we had to go to work a piece of land, or go someplace, he'd be the one to tell me, he
was the one who would help me go to school, he was my boss. When he got married in 1919,
when he came back from the war, he was till bossing me like he was before. Well, my mother
told me that I should get married. That's when I decided to move to Dallas. I started worlang
for my sister. She had a store there. After three months I came back home and got married.
We had a big celebration that Sunday and then Sunday night we went on our honeymoon and
that was in my mother's bed at her home. That's it. We didn't go anyplace.
Reb: How old was she?
SL: She was the same age as I was. She was three days younger.
Reb: And how old were you?
JR: You were born in 1900 and you were married in 1920. You had your first child in 1922.
Your second one in 1924.
SL: 1925.
JR: And mother died in 1965? Dad, what year did mother die?
SL: In 1965, February 11th.
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Reb: What we have not talked about, Mr. Lampo, aze the organizations that you've belonged
to since you were a young man. What organizations have you been involved in here?
SL: First organization I was in was the SL Luke's Society. It was at church and that was
long before I got married. When I became eighteen, I joined that. And we paid sixty cents a
year dues. And we'd have meetings, and that's about it, and we had a band and we would
march in parades. I remember we used to have parades in church, sometimes from the church
we used to have to walk all the way to the cemetery.
Reb: Is that where the Bryan City Cemetery is now?
SL: Our cemetery is beside the Bryan City Cemetery. It is the Catholic Cemetery. And then,
in 1924, after I was married, I joined the Knights of Columbus. And I reached the third and
fourth degrees. The job I got with Father John, is a job I just walked into, to help him,
because a lot of the time, we weren't organized, we didn't have altaz boys and we still don't
have altaz boys. And, by the way, we are going to have altar girls, beginning, probably next
month.
Reb: That's going to be a first at St. Anthony's Church. What is this job you aze referring to?
SL: I am called a sacristan. I am supposed to be the head of the sacristans, they aze the altar
boys. Sometimes I help them dress, or something like that.
Reb: But you oversee that these duties aze carried out in regards to the Mass?
SL: Most of the time they are late. They are supposed to arrive ten minutes before, but I
usually have everything done before they get there. I fix his Chalice and the Seborium, check
the Tabernacle and see how much (Hosts) is in the there to see if we have enough. I try to
figure out how many people will receive Holy Communion. Father John works with me on
that. I turn the lights on and turn on the air conditioner. I make every funeral and take part in
the funeral incense and fix the altar.
Reb: So many changes have taken place in the Catholic Church during the last ten or fifteen
years, and maybe it's been longer than that, when we have gone from Latin to the English
Mass. And we really don't have the High Masses anymore, do we?
SL: They are all High Masses now.
Reb: Of course, I am thinking of the early days when the High Mass was continuous singing
from the beginning to the end.
SL: The priest spoke in Latin and in the High Mass the priest talked loud, in the Low Mass
you couldn't hear him.
Reb: That's right, and the singing, too, was in Latin. What were the reactions of the Italians
here, when these changes came about in the church?
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SL: In 1961, I believe that's the date, most people (in our parish) spoke English. We had
very few Italian people left who didn't speak English. Father Bravi had not learned English
and he brought Father Peter here and they spoke broken English, but after that they never
spoke Italian anymore. Later they cut out the Latin Mass.
Reb: Well, that came from Vatican II, didn't it?
SL: Yes, I believe that was in 1963. There was no problem with this change and there was no
longer an Italian or Latin Mass it was all in English. The younger folks understand it, but not
too many of the old people.
JR: Were you president of the Holy Name Society?
SL: Yes, for twenty yeazs.
JR: What about the Fellowship Club?
SL: I was president of that club for ten yeazs and St. Luke's and St. Anthony's. I belonged
to all the societies.
Reb: Were you ever a member of any of the town's civic organizations?
SL: No.
Reb: Didn°t you run for public office once?
SL: City Council. I missed it by two votes, and I am so glad I was defeated.
JR: You would have had to deprive your store of your services, since you were in business
then.
SL: I would like to tell you about the day I went home and found my wife dying. I was
working for Lawrence Grocery Company and there was a time when, no matter whether she
felt good or bad, that at twelve o'clock when I would get home, that my dinner wasn't on the
table. But this particulaz day, on the 11th of February, I went home, and I usually would leave
bout five minutes to twelve and I'd be home; and the dinner, she had already put the dinner on
the table, when this stroke hit her. And she was in the dining room pushing her hair up, and I
could see the bloodshot, that had already started coming down into her face to her eyes. and I
said, "What is the matter? Is something wrong?" She said, "There's something wrong with
my head." And she was hollering, not loud, but she was calling the Blessed Mother. My
brother-in-law, who lived next door, called the ambulance and they brought her to the hospital.
The doctor said that she had had a slight stroke and said to leave her in the hospital for a couple
of weeks and she would be all right. By five o°clock that evening, they called me to tell me
that things had changed and to come to the hospital. When I arrived I saw that she was in a
coma. Johnnie, Jobey and I met with the doctor. The doctor advised us to take her to the
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hospital which we did but by one o'clock that next morning she died. We would have been
married sixty-six years.
JR: We had a beautiful fiftieth wedding anniversary party for them. Really wonderful!
Reb: °Thank you so much. Will you give your permission to use this material in print so that it
can be enjoyed by others?
SL: No, I wouldn't mind.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mr. John Sam Lampo (JL)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: Apri125, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Where and when were you born.
JL: I was born in Bryan, Brazos County, Texas on July 24, 1925. My parents were Sam and
Lena Lampo. My dad's (Sam Lampo) father was John Lampo and my mother ...my
grandparents on my mother's side were Luke and Mary Grizzaffi. My paternal grandparents
were John and Josephine Lampo. I was named after my grandfather, John, and my sister was
named after his wife, Josephine.
Reb: This seems to be customary in the Italian families: to name their oldest son after the father
or the grandfather.
JL: That's true, too.
Reb: What about daughters? (Entrance of Sam Lampo)
JI,: The daughters were usually named after the father's mother and the first born son after the
father's father. So in my family, my grandfather was named John Lampo, my dad's name is
Sam Lampo, my name is John Lampo, my son's name is Sam and his son°s name is Johnnie
Sam Lampo. That probably creates a lot of confusion when we have all of our bank accounts and
we get our mail confused and we get telephone calls: I think it is a good idea to keep tradition but
it really does get confusing, especially when somebody is trying to find you in the phone book.
Reb: Especially when the first name and middle name are in one position and they would be
reversed and then back to the original again. I have noticed this on some family trees where they
will do this as well. Now on the maternal grandparents, when will the daughters be named after
the mother's side?
JI,: If you have a second son or a second daughter then you start on the mother's side.
Reb: You have a sister, haven°t you?
JI,: Yes. Josephine.
Reb: Tell me a little bit about where your parents were born, because I understand that the
Italians in this area come primarily from the same geographical region in Sicily.
JL,: My parents were both born in the United States and both sets of grandparents (on both
sides) were born in Corleone, Italy (Sicily). There were really two major factions of Italian
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people here. The predominant ones were from Corleone and Poggioreale. They were only
twelve miles apart by geographic distances but, as faz as the culture and the dialect, they were
very different.
Reb: Did you learn to speak this?
JI.,: I learned to speak a little Italian by listening to my grandfather, but my mother and father
hardly ever spoke. They did speak quite a bit, but only when they didn't want us to know
anything azound the house. But we did pick up quite a bit. This came into play when we visited
Corleone, it's amazing what your brain can store when you go back to the very roots of where
you were born. When we went back to Corleone in 1983, it°s amazing how quickly your brain
can recall some of the words and the dialect itself when you are confronted with it every day and
that's all you can speak. And I predicted that if we could have stayed over there thirty to sixty
days we could have spoken very fluently. Our relatives were quite amazed that we still knew part
of the language, also, amazed at a lot of the customs that we had retained, their celebrations,
Christmas customs and a lot of the religious holidays that we still observe.
I knew that when I was growing up, and I was a young man and about to get marred, I knew
that my first consideration was an Italian girl, Catholic, whose roots were from Corleone, if that
was possible. Probably my generation was the last that felt that strongly about it. My parents
didn't have to tell me that, I knew it, something that we felt was hereditary and they didn't say,
"Johnnie, you have to marry somebody like that." I knew that was what I wanted, because the
compatibility or religious customs and religion, itself, and the food situation just made it a lot
easier for the families to get together. And even in my day, when I got married, it was still the
custom for my father to ask the father of the bride-to-be. They had to go there, and of course we
had akeady made up our minds ourselves that we wanted to be married, but it was the custom
that my father would ask her father. It was quite a step over the way my dad got married,
because he gave my grandparents two names and said, "If they turn you down then you can go
to this one." I don°t know how true that is, but that is what he told me. And another story that
dad told is that the reason he got married was because his brother was going to get married and
had bought a pair of shoes and the shoes didn't fit him and so they fit dad and so dad got
married. That's really a joke, and not true! We have a lot of customs and traditions that we are
very proud of and it is amazing to me that my sons that are coming up now, just how proud they
are to be Italians. They want to revive a lot of the customs. I thought it might be the other way
around, that they would want to forget about them, but that is not true.
Reb: Well, this is interesting because I was going to ask you ...there°s only a year°s difference
in our ages and I know that during the 1930s.....it was not that we were ashamed to be Italians,
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but we did not play up this ethnic background because there was a lot of discrimination in the
area where I grew up. Did you feel any of this here?
JL: I was probably one of the last generation that came up that felt it was pretty strong. In the
1930s I was going to school and, of course, we didn't have the economic situation that a lot of
the other kids did, but I can say this about my father and my family...we were always provided
with the necessities, we never went hungry, there was always food on the table. My dad was a
good provider, but still we grew up with some feelings of discrimination. You never really get
-over that, you never get over the feeling that at one time in your life that you have been
discriminated against, not because of what your personality is or what your character is but
because of your ethnic background. And this is a bad situation. I can remember that at one time
the reason that we built our Fellowship Community Club, and we didn't even give it an Italian
name was because we wanted to Americanize, because we were discriminated to the point that
we could not even rent a hall for our wedding. And this builds something inside of you. And
where I grew up a lot of the guys ended up in the penitentiary and I was taught to pick my
friends. The environment around the house and the Church influence that we had, I knew the
difference between right and wrong. My parents always taught us, in fact, I remember one time I
stole a picture at Woolworth's and when I got home and my father thought this looked
suspicious and he questioned us. And we finally admitted that we had stolen it from
Woolworth's and he marched us right down there to take it back.
And another thing, during the 1930s when they had the depression, I didn't know what the
depression was, we were always depressed, and we could not tell the difference. My dad always
had food on the table and we had a lot of friends that lived out in the country. My upbringing in
my youth, I really have to give my parents credit for, whenever they went out, and they went out
nearly every night somewhere, he took his family with him. I knew that whenever I went with
my dad I was going to have a good time.
Reb: Where did you go to school?
JI.: I went to Bowie Elementary School and, ironic as it may seem, they had aseventy-fifth
reunion of all the people who had gone to Bowie, and I always like to point out that I went with
my own father. He had attended Bowie and some forty-five years later, I attended Bowie so we
were able to go to the same reunion. Very few people can boast that they went to the same class
reunion with their father.
Reb: How long ago was this?
JL: About five or six years ago. As far as going to school, I'll never forget the economics of it .
I had a pair of white pants and shirt that I wore while being a little saint at a St. Joseph's Table
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and I was a saint until I was twenty-one years old, because I was so small. I'll never forget the
time that she (my mother) had these white pants and white shirt leftover and I needed clothes to
go to school and she dyed them brown. I wore them one time to school and I'll never forget the
girls teasing me about them. We never wore shoes to school and went barefooted but I was able
to compete because I had a lot of athletic ability and I was able to stay on a level with all my peers
there. And in school I held my own I wasn't an exceptional student, but when we attended the
reunion my old principal handed me my grades from when I was in grade school there and I
thought that was very interesting. Of course, I thought that was a beautiful elementary school
there, and as we grew older we began to attain some sort of social advancement in our family,
the discrimination wasn't as bad.
After we got to high school, of course, a lot of kids had their own cliques there and you felt a
little below their status in school and, in order, to attain equal status with them that I would
probably have to bring up myself to a point where I could meet them on an economical basis.
And this is what I try to tell my family, that if you want to be accepted you have to have a good
moral character and work hard and gain some sort of social prominence. And I think that I found
this in the Italian people that, because of the lack of education that my father and mother had,
there was probably an incentive for them and for us, even though I didn't have any real formal
college education, that made it that much more of a challenge. Just to think that I can do this, do
what I want to do without having a degree in this. Sometimes I think that not having a college
degree has been beneficial to me because maybe if I had come out of college I may have felt that
somebody owed me something. My attitude might have been different. After I came out of the
Service, I worked as a paralegal assistant for a couple of lawyers the prestige was fine but the
bread was not there. Dad and I had the opportunity to go into the grocery business, at one time,
and I had put in twenty-five yeazs with the company and all that I came out when they sold out
was with was a briefcase, that really irritated me, to be without a pension. So we went into
business, he and I were very compatible in business.
Reb: Now, when you finished high school, you went into the Service.
JL: I was only in the Service for eighteen months.
Reb: And then you went into business with your Dad.
JL: I had a real tough youth, not so much from the economic standpoint, but I had a physical
handicap from being so small. I was eighteen years old, since I had graduated from high school
at sixteen years old, I weighed eighty pounds. Now, I have a grandson that is ten years old who
weighs 125 - 135 pounds, so you can imagine the inferiority complex I had, but being athletic I
could compete with anybody and that was one of the main reason that I didn't go to college,
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because of my physical stature. In fact, when they tried to draft me into the Service I only
weighed 108 pounds and this was when I was eighteen years old, and I became desperate at that
point. So, I went to work for the Air Force Base in 1943 at Bryan Air Field and I knew that I
had to do something. I took the Charles Atlas course...I started that and followed it to the nth
degree and finally started growing and by the time I was about twenty years old I weighed about
130 pounds. I was just late in maturing. In fact, when they rejected me from the Service, the
first time, it was because of immaturity. They probably thought I was lying about my age, but
then, after all my friends had gone to the Service, I tried to volunteer and finally when it looked
like I wasn't going to get into the Service I volunteered for overseas service, they said that I
couldn't leave the country because they already had my papers in the mail already. And that was
the best thing that ever happened to me because it gave me experience and when I was discharged
I went to work in the county clerk's office. Then I went to work as a paralegal and I really
enjoyed that. I was married when I took the paralegal position. I married my wife, Bonnie, in
1946 after having gotten out of the Service in 1945. And I was with them for twenty-five years
when the opportunity to go into the grocery business came along.
Reb: What was that business called?
JL: Lampo and Son. Dad was forty-nine years old without anything except good memories of
having a good time in life and making a lot of friends. That was all he had to account for that. He
enjoyed his youth when he was young and he knew the grocery business because that was where
his expertise was and I was hungry and ready to go to work. At twenty-five I went into the
grocery business and stayed there about eight years and we did well. Dad retired and I thought I
could retire with three kids and, all of a sudden, we had two more, five kids put me back to
-work. So I went into business with my brother-in-law and sister. We stayed in business for
about 8 years. And there is something else that I would like to mention and that is the Italian wife
always pitched in and did her share. And I think that most of them never demanded more than
their husbands could provide.
Reb: But then do you feel that this is a typical trait of the Italian wife?
JL: Most defuutely. But it is not to say that there are not wives in the other ethnic groups that are
the same way, but I feel more so in the Italian family.
Reb: But you feel that this has been probably one of the important reasons why so many of the
Italians in the Brazos Valley are the successes that they are and have been?
JL: They definitely are.
Reb: Because of family operations?
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SL: You know I can look back at some of my Dad's friends that he grew up with who could
hardly write their names, they would sign "x's," but they made it, simply because they worked
hard, maybe not by today's standazds, but they became financially independent. Working hazd,
their wives pitching in, all the kids. This is one thing I admire about the Poggioralese that settled
in the "Bottoms," at one time they were all tenant farmers and now most of the land is owned by
them. That was by sheer determination and hard work.
Reb: Wlich has certainly spoken well for the Italian community.
JL: And they are highly respected, and they worked not so much to obtain social status as to
being accepted and liked by everybody and be respected. Nothing bothers me more than to know
that somebody doesn't like me, not that I am supposed to be liked by everybody.
Reb: Or not to like you just because of your heritage and not because of just you. Do you
remember any customs regarding health? Home remedies?
JL: Well, I do remember that if you got a bump or knot on your head we would put lard and salt
on it, Or if you cut your little toe we would use kerosene. I really don't remember too many of
the home remedies. If you had a really bad headache there used to be something really strong that
you could smell.
Reb: Something like a menthol?
JL: No, it wasn't a menthol.
Reb: Asplidity?
JL: Yes, something like that, I don°t remember. Well, we were raised in the city and we could
get to the doctor.
Reb: I guess this would be primarily for those persons living in the rural azeas. Would you
know where there might be lists of persons who lived in the rural azeas and where they lived at
the time? In other words, landowners who had Italian farmers working for them, it would seem
to me that somewhere it would be in the records, lists of those families who worked in particular
farming areas.
JL: You mean the people that settled down there in the "Bottoms?"
Reb: Yes
JL: I don't think I follow you questions.
Reb: In other words, if, for example, the Brazos Varisco family owned some of the property,
would you think that somewhere in their records they might have a list of the tenant farmers who
worked for them? I've not been able to locate anything like this. I feel, perhaps, that I am not
checking in the right azeas for this. And I don't know whether that would be the only listing of
the Italians who came and where they worked.
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JL: I don't think there is any official documentation as far as the tenant farmers. There could
possibly be some of the plantation owners of that time that kept a record. There are probably a
few people left who could tell you where they might have lived.
Reb: Before we finish our interview I would like to know the names of your children. You
have five children?
JL: My oldest son is named Sam after my grandfather, my second son was named Frank after
my wife's father; my third son, John Joseph, is named after me. If you have more than two sons
then you can name them whatever you want. My last son is named Christopher. In between I
have a daughter named Mary Ann; my mother's name was Maria Antonio which was Maria
Antonette and they called her Lena, for short. So we were in keeping with the custom. Talking
with my son, the other day, he said that he wanted to uphold that custom, but I think it probably
needs to be broken somewhere along the line.
Reb: Are those children all living here in this area?
JL: I am real lucky they are all living here now, three of my sons are in business with me and
my number four son is going to school in New York for a culinary certificate. He will probably
be the only official cook that we will have in the family. My daughter, married to my son-in-law,
Larry, we get together at least once a month.
Reb: How many grandchildren do you have?
JL: We have seven grandchildren. The youngest is about one month old, and another one
about 15 months old and, of course, I have two who are not married yet so that I will probably
have several more grandchildren. We are looking to the day that we can have a five generation
celebration. Our grandson is eighteen now so that we could possibly have one, which is highly
unusual.
Reb: Well, unless you can think of anything else you would like to have recorded in this
interview, those aze all the questions I have. I would like to ask you if you would object to this
going into print. If at some later date we do a printing of these interviews that I am collecting.
You, of course, would have an opportunity to look at it and read it and edit it.
JL: You do have my permission to do that.
Reb: Thank you. I think a collection of these interviews would be nice for students coming into
this azea to read.
JL: It would be race to get a group together sometimes, since they can bring up things that will
stir something in your mind. Of course, I think we have only just touched and, as we go along, I
can think of a lot more stuff.
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24
Reb: Well, I would like to do this: if you, at a later date, think of some things that you would
like for us to record, I would like to do this again with you, only touching on that additional
material. We just can't possibly cover a lifetime in thirty minutes.
JL: One thing I do want to say and that is that I don't ever remember being ashamed of being of
Italian or Sicilian descent. Being a Corleonese there has been a lot of bad publicity. We were
taught not to do anything illegal or immoral and I have tried to pass that on to my children. I
think that°s the secret, regardless of what your ethnic background is. Try to educate your
children and treat your fellow man right.
Reb: Well, this is the very reason I would like to have these interviews printed and put into a
place where other people can read these, to where they know how aware the Italian people are
and how proud they are of their heritage so that we can, in some way, counteract the bad
publicity that we often get. It's very important, I think.
JL: We can counteract that and by example. To establish a good reputation and maintain that
reputation, is very important. My kids know it and I don't have to tell them, they know that we
have a high standard of morality. Of course, we all make mistakes and there are things that we
are not proud of, but we try. Basically, our family is based on honesty and our religious
upbringing and we try to maintain that standard.
Reb: And lots of love, I know, too. Thank you, Johnnie, very much.
John S. Lampo is the brother to Josephine Marie Ruffino. Information regarding John's parents
and grandparents may be found in the interviews of Josephine Ruffino and John's father, Sam
Lampo.
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25
Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Josephine Angonia (JA) with comments by son, Don Angonia (DA) and his
wife Barbara (BA).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: August 1, 1988
Steele's Store, Texas
Reb: Mrs. Angonia, when and where were you born?
JA: I was born November 28, 1903 in Stone City, Brazos County, Texas.
Reb: Who were your parents?
JA: My father was Charles Carona and my mother was Dorothea Cangelosi. They were both
born in Sicily.
Reb: When did they arrive in the United States?
JA: I think they both arrived in the United States in 1894.
Reb: What was your husband's name?
JA: His name was Tony Angonia and he was born March 15, 1894 in Brazos County, Texas.
His father was Domenico Ancona. He was born February 29, 1869 and arrived in the United
States on October 28, 1882. He landed in New Orleans, Louisiana. The family name of Ancona
was changed to Angonia by one of his teachers at school.
Reb: Do you know whether he came from one of the villages of Poggioreale, Salaparuta or
Corleone? I understand that those persons from those villages did not tend to socialize with each
other after they arrived here in the Brazos Valley.
DA: You know they were never accepted here.
Reb: You mean by the non-Italian people?
DA & BA: No, no, by the other Italians. I guess he means like what you were saying..that over
in Italy they stayed within their own (villages).
Reb: So it carried over here?
BA: Yes.
Reb: I understand that some of the Italians settled over on one side of the Brazos River and some
settled on the other side.
BA: Well, yes they did.
JA: Some settled in Burleson County and some settled here (Brazos County). But the Burleson
people came later. They really settled here the first time in the bottoms here.
Reb: About what year was it when your parents came over?
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JA: I know when my mother came over, but I can't tell you now. Let me get that piece of paper.
DA: My father-in-law came over in 1882.
JA: That was my husband's family.
Reb: That was the Angonia family, but this was your father-in-law, Domenic Angonia, in 1882.
DA: The name was Ancona but the teachers in school, when my father went to school, got my
father's name mixed up.
Reb: And so it became Angonia?
BA: Yes
JA: The teachers spelled it Angonia and it was supposed to be Ancona but the kids didn't tell
them that and I guess my father...well, the kids couldn't spell either.
Reb: Well, the teachers would spell it the way that it sounded to them. I understand that the
Italians came over in the early 1880s, so that your family must have been among some of the early
Italians to get here.
JA: My parents must have come a bit later.
DA: That's what is on his citizenship papers. They settled in Louisiana. And they made enough
money there, a lot of them did, and they stayed there to work. They heard about Texas and they
could do better here in Texas because they were just cutting cane out there and her they could raise
corn and cotton and all of that. So they wanted to come here and they did.
Reb: Do you know about how long they were in New Orleans?
DA: My grandfather came over with his daddy when he was about 12 years of age. My
grandfather came before with my great-grandfather. They came by themselves without their
wives, before 1882. He and my great-grandfather worked for thirty-cents a day, then they went
back to Sicily. When my grandfather came back a second time he came back in 1882 and was
married.
JA: He married Aunt Catherine Carona's sister and she died.
DA: Didn't they come twice? He came with his daddy and they went back and got the rest of
them.
JA: No, they sent the money and asked them to come. That's how they all did. No, no, he came
here with his father, he was single. His mother lived across the Little Brazos and he was young
boy. I thought you said twelve but I thought he was eleven.
Reb: Now, is this Domenic you are talking about?
JA: Right. and then they moved here across the river into the bottoms and then he got married to
this lady I was talking about and she died. I don°t believe she lived nine months.
Reb: What was her name, do you remember? Was she of the Cangelosi family?
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27
JA: Yes. The second time he married he sent after this one from Italy. They were friends, they
lived in the same neighborhood, same town and all. And he sent after her and his father, his
mother had died.
Reb: Now she's your mother?
JA: No, she was my husband's mother. He married twice.
Reb: What was their reason for coming to the States?
JA: I know from my father-in-law that he had had a bad year and his crops had been destroyed.
They had had grapes and wheat. When my father was little he used to help my grandfather. Only
the men came over, but my father didn't come with his father he came with his mother. They
established a place in Louisiana and then they sent for their family. They weren't used to cutting
cane, it was hard work and it was hot, and they would say how terrible it was.
Reb: And I understand that living conditions in New Orleans were not too good at that time.
JA: My father was still a teenager when they came here.
Reb: Did they go right into farming when they married?
JA: Yes, I can't tell you how many acres they rented from this plantation owner.
Reb: Do you remember the name of the plantation owner?
JA: I think it was Thomas. It was Thomas and Sims. This was the father of the Sims (who was
here) when I came here.
Reb: They must have owned quite a bit of property here in Steele's Store.
JA: They did. The Sims family owned from here to the Little Brazos. The Steeles didn't own
too far, Sims had a whole lot more land, but the Steeles owned a gin and they had a store, they had
most of everything that people here needed
Reb: This old gin nearby, was that Steele's Gin?
JA: Yes, and they had atwo-story home, in fact, when we bought it we tore it down and they
used that lumber. That was good lumber, they really had some good lumber a long time ago.
Reb: Did the farmers raise different crops then as opposed to now?
JA: No, they still raise corn, cotton, vegetables and they are raising more grain than they did
then.
Reb: What about irrigation or was it all dry land farming?
JA: All dry land farming. This (irrigation) came later. It rained a lot and they had a lot of little
floods. That's what took my father and a lot of others away from here, too. My father-in-law
didn't buy but my father did, he said he didn't want any part of it. So they moved to Hearne and
bought some land. You know a farmer is a farmer, no matter what.
Reb: That°s right, they don't change.
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JA: They don't change, so we were in town, but that didn't work. We stayed there for about a
year then moved into the country and bought this land.
Reb: Out from Hearne?
JA: Yes, about eleven miles out from Hearne.
Reb: What do you know about the floods of 1899 and 1900, which, I understand, were about
six months apart?
JA: Yes, that°s the year that so many families became disgusted and left.
Reb: I think that was about the time that the parents of my paternal grandmother moved from
Steele's Store to Galveston.
JA: (Looking at some papers brought out by DA) I don't remember when my father was born.
Reb: This is the Petition for Naturalization.
DA: He was born in Palermo (province) in the village of Poggioreale, Sicily. See here what I am
saying about our name (change)?
Reb: Yes, I see that it was originally Ancona. He arrived at the Port of New Orleans in 1882.
Have you located the ship°s passenger lists? I have for several families.
DA: I don't know what ship he came over on.
Reb: See, he arrived 28 October 1882 in New Orleans.
JA: Where did you get that?
DA: Somebody in Bryan, either a Fazzino or Patranella, was looking through the records at the
courthouse for some of lus kinspeople and he found this and he asked me if I wanted it....Jack C.
and Linda Marino....and do you know who signed grandpa's naturalization papers, mama? One
was Seth Mooring and the other was Boyett. You know you had to have somebody to verify it or
stand for you.
JA: When did you say grandpa came?
DA: In 1882
JA: I don°t know but my mama might have this wrong here. She said that she came to America
in 1894.
Reb: What was her name?
JA: Dorothea.
DA: That's the year Daddy was born.
JA: Over there? 1894.
Reb: Was that Domenico?
DA: No, my daddy was Tony born in 1894. Domenico was born in 1869.
Reb: And your father (Tony) was born?
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DA: On the 29th day of February 1894. He was born on leap year. Well, I'll be darn,
look!...(discussion follows and dates corrected). He was born 15 January 1894. (Don's father).
Reb: What is your first name Mr. Angonia?
DA: Don.
BA: But is it Domenic on your birth certificate?
DA: Yes.
Reb: Yes, Don is English for Domenic. Have you ever had a desire for going to the "old
- country" to see where your family came from? Did your parents ever talk about wanting to go
back?
BA: No, they never did. That's why I know very little about back then.
Reb: Do you think they just wanted to put that behind them and start a new life?
JA: I don't know.
Reb: How did they feel about being over here? Did they feel that times were pretty hard and did
they ever regret coming here? Were they happy here?
JA:: No, they were happy here. No, they didn't regret it.
Reb: I guess they spent most of their time working and famvng. Did they have much time for
church activities?
JA: Sure.
Reb: Did they belong to the Italian Benevolent Society?
JA: Oh, yes, they were involved, but not at the beginning because we had no church or anything.
Reb: Where did they go to church when they were younger?
JA: Well, they would have to go to Bryan and then again...we never had one here but we did
have one in Burleson after so many years. Those people in Burleson built a church there.
Reb: So that must be a really old church there.
JA: Oh, yes, but they had to redo it.
Reb: What is the name of that church in Burleson County.
JA: San Salvador.
Reb: Oh, yes, the San Salvador Mission.
JA: Right.
Reb: I know that was built in 1903, but it seems to me that these people had to go to another
church some place before the San Salvador Church was builte
JA: They had to go into Bryan.
Reb: Over to St. Joseph's Church?
BA: Didn't they have a little church over where the schoolhouse is?
5
30
JA: No, in the school auditorium.
BA: I thought there was a little building that was taken down even before Don and I were
married.
JA: Well, there was kind of a little hall over there out in the field or little orchard out there.
Reb: You could either go there to church or into Bryan.
JA: But the roads were so bad and most of the time you couldn't because the dirt roads were
muddy.
Reb: So, then would there be a priest from St. Joseph's to come out here then, to say Mass?
JA: They would come from Bryan but I can't think of their names.
BA: Was it St. Joseph's or St. Anthony's?
JA: St. Anthony's. Now when I married the only priest they had then was Father Bravi?
Reb: This would have been before St. Anthony's in the late 1800s.
BA: When they had the church there.
Reb: So I guess the priest would have had to come from St. Joseph°s Church.
BA: Oh, okay.
Reb: I know that my grandmother and grandfather were married by a priest from St. Joseph's
and that was in the 1880s or 1893, I guess it is.
JA: This book tells how that church was built there. One of the daughters of one of the families
there had this vision and then every farmer gave a little cotton and donated until they got it and they
built the church themselves.
Reb: But doesn°t the historical marker at the church say that most of the people were from
Corleone who built that church?
JA: Oh, really? That was put there recently by Father Bilski.
BA: It was the Historical Society.
Reb: I am interested in that little church because I thought that at last I had found the church
where my grandparents might have gone, but then it said 1903 and that was too late for them. I
know that their mamage certificate says St. Joseph's Church and I assumed that a priest from that
church traveled around to say Mass.
JA: Do you think the priest was from Bryan?
Reb: Yes. Did you have an opportunity to go to school when you were growing up? How many
years were you able to go to school? (Speaking to JA)
JA: I went to school in Hearne.
Reb: That was when you moved to the outskirts of Hearne?
BA: I went to school in Hearne, also.
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JA: At first my father used to take us there. When we got a little older we walked on the good
days...we walked many days. It was not too faz from our house, really, it was really close.
Reb: When he would take you, what kind of transportation did you have at that time?
JA: First he would take us in the wagon, then we got a buggy and he used to take us with the
buggy. But by that time he could trust us to walls, unless it was a bad day and then he would come
and get us.
Reb: What do you remember about your early school days? Were you pretty much in one or two
rooms in the school or did your school have several moms?
JA: It was a big school..it was a two story building.
DA: She went to school in the city ...in Heazne.
Reb: Well, there weren't any country schools out there then, so that if children wanted to go
school they had to be brought in?
JA: The only country school was here in Steele's Store.
-Reb: When you went to school in Hearne what do you remember about the number of Italian
students? Were there more Italians than non-Italians or the other way around?
JA: Well, there were more non-Italians, of course.
Reb: How did you get along with the non-Italians?
JA: Well, we were a bunch of Italian kids when I started to school. We mixed pretty well.
Reb: Well, I lrnow that sometimes they can be a little bit strained and a little bit difficult.
BA: Especially back in those days.
DA: But they didn't have the class distinction there that they had at some of those other schools.
In Bryan, it was different, the non-American kids were regarded as kids from the streets. They
were a mixture of nationalities and they were jeered at and there were "cat calls." Where mama
went to school there wasn't that class distinction. Hearne just wasn't that kind of town.
-Reb: Mrs. Angonia, how many brothers and sisters do you have?
JA: Seven sisters and three brothers.
Reb: That was a lazge family, that was nice. When you and your husband mazried did you have
plans to stay here in this azea?
JA: He was here and his farm was here and his father had farmed and he took over when his
father died.
Reb: And are most of your children living around here in this area?
JA: I have just the two children ...Don and Anna Lee.
Reb: Did you grow up in a house where there were a lot of Italian customs that you mother and
father followed? Everything was pretty much family oriented, wasn't it?
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JA: One holiday we cook wheat. I drink it came just before Christmas...sometime in
December...l3th of December...Feast Day of Santa Lucia.
BA: I know lot of families in Bryan who still do that.
DA: Kerosene and sugar for coughs, castor oil with soup -the spring remedy. Chopped onions
with olive oil to make a poultice and asphidity bags (usually worn azound the neck) for general
use.
Reb: We still use my grandmother's remedy for earaches: make a gauze tube by running gauze
strips through melted wax and wrapping around a pencil, being careful to shape a narrow opening
at one end for insertion into the affected eaz. Then, after insertion into the ear, wrapping a towel
around its base so as to protect the person's head and face, light the other end with a match and
letting this tube burn down as far as you dare. When it has reach this point, remove and
immediately dunk into a nearby pan of water. When slit open with a scissors, you will be able to
see yellow wax which has been drawn from the ear by the draft which was created from the fire.
JA: We also used Mentholatum dissolved in boiling water for breathing...good for colds.
BA: I remember belly bands that were used to wrap azound the stomach to protect the navels of
newborns. These bands held a smaller square of folded gauze (about the size of a fifty cent piece)
in place over the navel to prevent protrusion.
JA: My mother had eleven kids and not one of them has a bad navel. You know when those kids
would cry that would put a strain on their navel and often it would rupture.
Reb: I have what was then known as a "swaddling cloth" which was used to protect the navel
and help support the infant°s back.
BA: Well, we did this with all three of mine and they have beautiful navels.
DA: We used to put Vick's Salve into water and put a towel over our head and breathe as in a
vaporizer.
Reb: Yes, I remember that. I, also, remember my grandmother wrapping cloth azound her head,
wrists and her ankles in the wintertime to protect the pulses and from contracting the flu.
JA: It was different when I was young. We ran to the doctor, except for minor injuries, for
which my dad was able to handle. Sometimes the kids would get a high fever and he would take
castor bean leaves and place them on their foreheads and keep replacing these (until the fever went
down).
DA: It would really draw out the fever.
Reb: What exactly would he do with the castor bean leaf?
33
JA: He would wet it with cold water and then apply it to the head, or my daddy would sometimes
put it on my back. The cold water would come from the well, since we didn't have any ice then,
and when it would get hot he would take that off and put on another batch.
Reb: So it was almost like a natural poultice.
DA: That's right, I have used them myself.
BA: To draw the heat or fever out.
JA: And that would do it. We, also, used to mix sulfur and lazd for cuts. I still do that myself
for the kids. Just make a paste out of it and put it on and wrap it up. It would help.
Reb: We aze tending to go back to some of these old-fashioned remedies and are realizing that all
too often we are too quick to use these high-powered medicines and for too long a period of time.
JA: I think that some of those old-fashioned remedies are better than some of those today.
BA: (To JA) Why don't you tell her about when you were living on the outskirts of Hearne and
that lots of time you didn't know that you were going to have company and you would have
chickens and you had pigs.
JA: We didn't have a refrigerator, either. We'd go out and kill a chicken or pig, according to
how many, and we were really close to Hearne and if we needed anything my daddy would get in
the wagon and go get it or we would walk to town.
BA: But didn't you make bread everyday?
JA: Oh, every day. Not too long ago I quit making bread.
BA: What was the name of the bread with sardines?
JA: Faccio la vecchio. (Face of an old person)
Reb: When you say sardines are you talking about anchovies?
DA: Yes, now they call it pizza.
JA: Sardine bread...fixed with olive oil, anchovies, salt and pepper.
- Reb: I remember that when I was a little girl visiting my maternal grandmother, who lived in
New York state, that while she was cooking if she didn't have time to make bread would send us
to the bakery to buy bread dough after the first rising. We would bring it back and she would
punch it down for the second rising and then she would take bits of dough and top it with some of
the sauce and cheese and bake it for us. We were eating pizza, but at the time we didn't call it that.
JA: Now it is call sphengiuni.
DA: Now the azea that my dad's parents came from and my mama's pazents...there were no
fancy foods, just plain food. We never heazd of cannelloni or mozzarella.
JA: Mama never did make anything like that.
DA: We never heard of it.
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Reb: So were those "anglicized" names?
DA: The only time we ever heard of that stuff was when the folks from Philadelphia would come
down here. The rest of the time it was just plain spaghetti and meatballs.
JA: And my mama used to make her own spaghetti. When she came here she was only ten years
old.
DA: What I am saying is that in those areas where they came from they didn't cook those kinds
of foods. In the large cities they might have had those things. The point that I was trying to make
is that the rural people ate simply,
BA: I want her to be sure and tell you about when she married and didn't live here (in Steele's
Store) but at the old home place.
Reb: Now, was that the one that was near Hearne?
BA: No, the home place was her husband's father's place. Her father-in-law..Grandpa
Domenic.
JA: He had atwo-story house because of the floods. Whenever there used to be a flood or
anything like that.....The first flood in 1913 took everything. One of the girls was engaged and
she had all of her trousseau and it was all out on the trees and they found a piece here and piece
there. So after that he built atwo-story house. The one I remember, when I married, the kitchen
was down here but the bedrooms, one was downstairs and one was upstairs. They didn°t have but
two bedrooms. When I married that was the flood we had and that machine (sewing machine) we
were talking about awhile ago, that was in the first flood. My husband put a couple of mattresses
on top of the bed and when the mattresses floated up it touched the ceiling and my machine was
half submerged in water and so was my dresser and they white when I got back. When we came
back we came in a boat.
(Small portion of the interview was Trussed during the turning of the cassette to the second side)
JA: There was no rain. That was in 1921 and it was kind of a dry year. It hadn°t rained or
anything and it was so dry, and the flood came and the water was above the banks, I don't know
how many feet above the bank.
DA: It came like a tidal wave.
JA: Yes, that's how fast it came, and there were all those crickets and animals in the water.
BA: And the train came through just blowing its whistle and they didn't know what was
happening. The sun was shining and they couldn't believe it.
JA: And at eleven o'clock that night my brother-in-law, who was living here, came riding over
and told us to get out and my father-in-law said, "Are you crazy? It's eleven o'clock.°° And he
answered, °'No, you all had better get out that water is coming too fast." So he said to get the
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35
wagon and take me and my mother-in-law and they took us over here and he and my husband
stayed over there, and they put some of these things up they thought they could save, but the
water was above the windows.
Reb: Had there been rains north of here?
DA: Right around Taylor and Cameron...twenty-seven inches. What happened was that the
tributaries of the Big Brazos couldn't take it and it washed on across the Little Brazos and it was
just a virtual tidal wave.
BA: In between the Big Brazos and the Little Brazos, there were no dams, but now there are.
JA: Me and my husband took all the mules that they had in the gin lot and took them back with
his father. We were down here in the two-story house and then we went up and the people who
were coming in, like the Steeles, some of the Steeles who were still in their home, would go get
them with the boat. And they would bring them in and that boat would come into the big hall up to
the big stairs.
Reb: -And this was in your home?
JA: No, in my sister-in-law's home, which was up here at Steele's Store. And they would get
off the boat at the stairs and come upstairs. And about eleven o°clock that night, the men were all
out on the porch, all the women were in, and you could hear those animals. Three times the men
made an effort to go, but the water was about to take them. You should have heard those things
hollering. They knew it was something bad...they could sense it. The water was still rising and
afterwards, they couldn't find those mules. We would count those steps as the water was getting
higher and higher. I was married at that time...it was our first year of marriage.
It was in September 1921....I was pregnant and Frances 1JePuma and I were the only new
ones (brides) ...and Catherine Scanlin. They were crying and that started me crying and I thought
that we must be in real danger. Finally, at twelve o'clock my father-in-law said, "Well, it's
stopped. The water isn't rising anymore."
BA: But you must understand that the houses were built way up off the ground and they were
two-stories.
JA: And that night they had all those men up there and everybody who came brought something.
DA: And daddy was talking about people being brought up by boat off the roofs of the houses.
JA: Now, that was in 1913, he was in that, I wasn't. They chopped the ceiling and the Bryan
people got out through the roof.
BA: Well, now this flood didn't get quite that high.
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JA: But we noticed the next morning that the porch had sunk. It was almost about to tear off
from the house. And all of those men would have fallen into the water. I don't know how many
inches they said it had sagged down.
When I married there really wasn°t anything really exciting (around here). There was a saloon
out there and they tell me that it was really rough. There was one here and one at Ward Mooring.
BA: See the red building, well the one in front of it across the road, that was where the original
Steele's Store was. I don't know why they tore it down. Tell her about the store here. Did it have
the pharmacy in it a long time ago?
JA: Along time ago...during Steele's time.
BA: You see, it had a pharmacy in it.
JA: That man...his wife..she was something like a doctor. They used to call her dottore
(doctor).
Reb: Was she more like a woman doctor?
JA: Yes, but she wasn't, but she did help those people. They said that she was.
Reb: Now, was this Mrs. Steele?
JA: Yes.
BA: Who was the phanmacist...didn't they have to have a pharmacy? Was her husband a
phamlacist?
JA: No, what they had was just medication that they would sell.
Reb: Tell me what you can remember about Steele's Store itself.
JA: Before I married that was all gone and the daughter was the only left here.
BA: Don, why don't you-tell Rosemary the story about the Steeles and how he originally ended
up here.
DA: He was hunting for gold up in Colorado and he had a partner and they had mined about
$250,000 worth of gold. He woke up one morning and his partner had taken off with the gold,
except for his poke that he had in his pocket that he slept with. He took out after him to find him
and get his money back and he was going to kill him. Now you°ve got to understand that
everything in those days was done on horseback and he trailed him through what is now
Oklahoma. It was the Oklahoma Territory then. He chased him through all that country and as
time went by he got to Bryan and he had been on the trail for over two years..all the way from
Colorado on horseback. He had made some friends here in Bryan and they pleaded with him to
give up the chase. By that time he had cooled off.
Like I say, he had a little gold, he had a poke that he had brought with him and he liked the
country, I guess, and he came out here and he bought about one hundred acres of ground,
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something like that. Eventually he put up a gin, that old rock building was a gin without cleaners.
It separated the cotton from the seed. He built the grocery store that mother was talking about with
a pharmacy at the back. He was kind of a "jack of all trades." He would sew up cuts, doctor
persons for snake bites and all kinds of things like that, you know. He's buried right out there..in
the back. There's a marker on his grave.
Reb: Now, where would that be...near where the store was?
DA: Not the store, per se, the store was to the left of the peach orchard out there, right in the
back. There's a little fence around it and a marker. Quite an interesting experience. His grandson
died when he was seventy-five years old and I was a pallbearer at his funeral in Houston. I knew
his son real well...that guy who was on horseback...I knew his son. Because daddy used to take
me with him to Houston to see him all the time and he was one of those old gentlemen, like my
grandpa, who used to wear those white long-sleeved shirts with the black garter and the black bow
tie, always. Every time we used to go there he would have on that black bow tie and that garter
arm band. He was quite a character.
Reb: Well, Don, you were born here in Steele's' Store, then?
DA: Right.
Reb: Well, you've known this area all of your life, from one end to the other.
DA: See, I'm sixty-three, that's the reason I know as much about it as mama does, because I
remembered grandpa talking about it and the old timers. I used to sit on the store porch when I
was five years old, or seven or eight years old, and just listen to them talk and I remember just
about everything that they said
Reb: About the agriculture, specifically, I was asking your mother about irrigation. Was it dry
land famvng completely?
DA: Yes, it was. It was the kind of farming like in those days. Daddy used to get up at two or
three o'clock in the morning. There wasn't the kind of poisoning that you use nowadays. They
had a broomstick with two flour sacks tied at end and they were filled with poison and he'd ride a
mule and shake it (the pole). Then as the size (of the farm) progressed he had amule-drawn
poison machine with a blower that would blow this dust out in the back of him. And he would still
have to getup about three o'clock in the morning because he could only do this when the wind was
calm. Everything was done with labor and mules, even to the baling of hay. I've seen hay baled
with a little crane with a pole and the men would pull the pole down and wrap the hay. It was quite
slow but they did it.
Reb: Your mother was saying that there was more grain being raised than there was then, but
was there grain and cotton earlier?
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DA: I really don't think that there is more raised now than then. Lots of them had to raise the
grain for the mules. They raised corn for the mules and so its about equal.
JA: No, it's more grain now...they raise maize and wheat.
DA: Well, we didn't raise any milo back then but they did raise corn.
Reb: But basically, the grains: corn and cotton were the two major crops?
DA: Yes.
Reb: Other than the truck gazdens.
DA; Right, except what you raised for the house, as far as gardening was concerned.
Reb: What about canning, putting up tomatoes? Did they do much of that?
JA: They didn't do that, that came later.
Reb: Did your father ever make tomato paste...the sun-dried tomato paste?
JA: Yes, mama made it.
Reb: Was there a specific variety of tomatoes used?
JA: No.
DA: Every farmer down here made his own wine. He either grew his own grapes, like my
grandfather grew his own grapes and grew his peaches for peach brandy...and didn't make any to
sell, just for home consumption. I've seen him dry figs for fig cookies. Like mama said, I've
seen my step-grandmother make tomato paste. And then I've seen her aunt, my mama's sister,
make her own noodles. I never saw grandmother do that but I saw Aunt Mary Richards do it.
Reb: Did they wrap it (dough) azound a broom handle, slide it off and cut it to make the
tagliarini?
JA: First, mama used to roll it out and then she would turn it, and fold it until it was about an
inch wide and then she would cut it. We made all of the pasta.
DA: I remember grandpazents on both sides cooking with a wood stove. it seemed like the bread
and the food would taste better. Of course, it could have been my imagination.
Reb: No, but I think that it did. It didn't have all the preservative that the food has now.
DA: But what I miss now more than anything is the family. Kids nowadays, if they can't find
something on TV or something else, they're bored. We used to look forward just to go and visit
kinfolks. The art of visiting is gone. Neighbors would come over and play...mama and daddy
and another couple would play a cazd game called "Pitch." Or they would buy those puzzles and
work putting them together hour after hour.
Reb: What about the cazd game called briscola?
DA: Briscola, the men used to play it a lot at the stores a whole lot and I have played quite a bit of
it myself, and these home games like Pitch or Canasta or things like that.
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Reb: What about bocci balls?
DA: The men played bocci, but very little. Bocci was more or less confined to the city. Out in
the country they didn't play much bocci. Now my daddy and his brother-in-law and friends, they
had skeet traps and they would shoot skeet in their spare time. And they were excellent shots,
because back then a lot of the food they put on the table was meat and was game, because they
couldn't afford to buy it...meat, that is...but once a week. They did raise chickens.
Reb: What would you have besides, ducks, geese, and wild turkeys?
DA: There was not much wild turkey in this area, but they would have squirrels and dove and
quail and lots of cottontail rabbits back then. Rabbit is delicious if fixed right. Daddy wasn't
much on frog legs. He wouldn't eat them at all.
JA: He wasn't much on wild game.
DA: You mean I was the only one in the family who liked rabbit?
Reb: What about venison, did you have much of that?
DA: We had a lot of it, but we weren't too fond of it. I think it was the way it was prepared,
because I have eaten some venison steaks that Tillie Scam~ardo fixed and you couldn't tell it from
beef.
Reb: We like it made into sausage, mixed with a little pork.
DA: Yes, now that's good.
Reb: What about the making of wine? Do you remember much on the procedures of making
wine?
DA: Mama might remember, I was too small for that.
JA: They would just put it in something to let it ferment. After it fermented they would strain it.
I don't remember too much, but I do remember that my daddy used to buy it by the barrel. In my
time, it was a little better than before. We never did have any hard times, I just remember my
grandfather and my father making it and putting it in a barrel to ferment.
Reb: Did they add sugaz to help the process?
JA: Yes, they did, but I don't know how much.
Reb: I remember my grandfather keeping a bowl on the back porch with the grapes
fermenting..just asmall amount, nothing big, because they were living in...well, it wasn't really a
city, it was just a small town. He didn't really have a lot of grapes at his disposal...anyway they
did enjoy that. What about beer..did they drink much beer in those days...or was it mostly wine?
JA: They didn't drink too much beer.
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Reb: Well, all of you have given me a lot of information and I have really appreciated it. I hope
that I have your permission to put this material into a book, which I hope to write one day soon.
°Thank you very much.
JA: You are welcome.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Lena DiMaria Canavespe (LDC) and daughter, Lena Mae Canavespe
(LMC). An occasional comment was made by Mrs. Josephine Ruffino (Jobey) (JR).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale (Reb)
Date: August 3, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Mrs. Canavespe, your address is 2211 Carter Creek Parkway, Bryan, Texas. When
were you born?
LDC: June 11, 1903 in Burleson County, somewhere close to the little church, close to
Caldwell. It used to be the Gregg place, some of the land use to belong to some of the Greggs.
Reb: What was your mother's name?
LDC: My mother's name was Laura Labruzzo.
Reb: And your father's name?
LDC: Santo DiMaria.
Reb: What was your husband's first name?
LDC: Frank.
Reb: Where was he born?
LDC: He was born in Louisiana but he was only three years old when he came to Burleson
County as a neighbor to us.
Reb: But you have been here all of your life. Where did your mother and father come from?
LDC: From Poggioreale, both of them.
Reb: Do you have brothers and sisters?
LDC: My father and mother had ten children. only three, the last ones, lived. In Sicily they
had babies up to nine months and they all died. When they came to the United States my
mother was pregnant, she had a little boy whose name was Vito, because my fathers father
was Vito, and he lived up to four years old. He developed typhoid fever. In those days they
didn't take them to the doctor and he died. That was before all three of us were born.
LMC: Tell her about your sister.
LDC: Then my mama just had my older sister.
Reb: Tell me about your "growing up" days.
LDC: We stayed in Burleson County until I was almost six. I remember things there. My
daddy used to work in the field. One of my neighbors was my mother-in-law and she was my
godmother and he my godfather, and we had other neighbors. Then my daddy, after staying
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thirteen years on the same land, bought this land in Brazos County right in the middle of where
the Air Base used to be (right off of Highway 21) a hundred acres of land. I remember when
we moved, all the neighbors helpedwith their wagons. One of them had the furniture, the other
wagon had corn, seed, and farm equipment. And there was a school close to us...my mama
didn°t send us, the first year, I was six and my sister was almost eight.
Reb: What school would that have been?
LDC: Smetana School. She didn't send us at first because we didn't have a brother to look
after us. Later it was decided to do away with that school and another was built a little farther
away (from us), atwo-room school. Some Italian people moved close to us. One of them
said, "Now Mrs. Laura you must send your girls to school." My first yeaz we went through
woods, the first day, I mean, I thought it was so faz and we could see it from our house.
LMC: I asked her one time, "What did you all take for lunch?" They took cheese, boiled
eggs, bologna. Then I asked her what they played at school...and they played baseball. She
said the boys had a bat but the girls had a big board.
LDC: We went to school there three yeass. Later a school was built right across our fence.
Reb: What was the name of the school?
LDC: Goodson School. The school was in the pasture and here was the road coming to
town and they had the house here and they had a yard man and a cook.
Reb: Did you have two classrooms?
LDC: The one school at Smetana had two. We used to have a primer, first grade, third grade
all in one room, and in the other was a man (teacher) Mr. Power, and on this side was Miss
Nona Goodson. Miss Nona William and Mr. Power, in later years they married. I believe
Miss Nona is still living.
LMC: Well, mama, you're eighty-five.
LDC: That school was one room like a one room store and a porch. One door in the front
and one door on the side to go to the bathroom outside.
Reb: And do you remember how many grades they were teaching in that one room?
LDC: Miss Nona Goodson was teaching until the seventh grade and I went until the sixth.
LMC: Mother, did you decide to quit or did your parents want you to quit.
LDC: No, my daddy didn't want me to quit. I quit because I was the oldest one there.
Reb: But, if you had wanted to go to school for more grades or classes you would have had
to go into Bryan?
LDC: Yes. I went to the sixth grade but it was difficult because I didn't speak English well.
Reb: But the teacher would have had to speak Italian herself.
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LDC: But she didn't want us to speak Italian.
Reb: But, then how did you do your lessons? Did you translate between you children? How
:did you all communicate?
LDC: Well, we would ask her and she would tell us the word.
Reb: So she understood you enough so that she could help you.
LDC: Oh, one time we all...big boys and big girls were talking Italian under one of the big
trees. She said, "Get through with your lunch and come in," and she made us stay in because
we were talking Italian.
Reb: She didn't want you to, she wanted you to learn to speak English. So besides the
Italian families there, there were German families also?
LDC: And Polish.
Reb: Did you ever feel that there was a little bit of friction between the different ethnic
groups...between the Italians and the Germans, and the Polish?
LDC: No, we were always friends. Nobody had any trouble.
Reb: And the church that you went to, was that St. Anthony's on E. 28th St.?
LDC: Yes, it burned. That church was built by the Italians.
Reb: But now San Salvador Mission is out there and it was built in 1903, so did you go to
San Salvador Mission? When you moved to Highway 21, near where the Research Annex is
now, then did you come into St. Anthony's Church?
LDC: Yes, but to both places. We used to go there because we had kinfolks there. We had
my mother-in-law, that was my mama comare (godmother) and she wanted us to go eat there.
Then my mother had a cousin that was raised together in Italy but he was there and he'd say,
"You all are coming up there to eat." But on this side of town, I don't know much about it, but
Burleson County, I know all about it.
LMC: She told me about when they started their trousseau and about the valliggiato, a person
who came around selling linens (out of a suitcase) and he would come around after cotton
picking time when they had money.
LDC: He used to sell linens and bedspreads and lace.
Reb: Didn't a lot them sell those cut velvet bedspreads? We called them matrimonials.
LMC: Is that what they call them? We didn't buy one of those, did we?
LDC: My mama bought one.
LMC: She told me that when they were about twelve or thirteen they started (a trousseau).
Reb: That makes me think about catechism. When you went to catechism classes were you
able to be with the nuns anytime when you were growing up?
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LDC: No, my mother taught us all the prayers. When I was ready to be confirmed I was
about ten and we were chopping then. The bishop didn't to come regularly like he does now.
So, while we were chopping cotton my mother would say, "C'mon say the Creed," and we'd
say them (the prayers) over and over. at home, too, until I learned the Creed, the Confiteor, the
Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary.
Reb: Also, the sisters probably taught you to crochet and embroider and to do all those
things?
LDC: Well, when it rained and we couldn't pick cotton, my mama would say, "Girls, don't
sit down." We had to embroider. We would go to town and buy pillows and she would make
the pillowcases and we would draw the flowers. We had a neighbor who knew how and we
would all go there. We had to embroider and she would fix them so pretty with a little bit of
lace and she would put them in the trunk. We had more embroidered scarves. She would say,
"Girls, you don't sit down, you have to have that needle in your hand.'° And she made my
older sister quit school when she was eleven years old and we'd come in and there she was
making sheets.......the hem. She'd buy the material and she would fix it for my sister, and we
would stitch away. and she used to call us her brides and sometimes she would get mad and
chase us with a stick. And my sister, Mary, and I would go to school. Then my mother said
that we needed to teach our older sister what we learned at school. We would go to Haswell
book store.
LMC: That was the place to go, they had everything.
LDC: She bought us a primer, she bought a speller, she bought us a tablet of paper, and the
pencil.
LMC: What she°s telling you is that the intention was that mama, and Aunt Mary (would)
teach Aunt Pauline.
Reb: Why did you think that she did not want the older sister to go to school?
LMC: The two younger ones were lucky because some of their peers didn't go at all. The
older ones usually had to take care of the younger children (in the household).
LDC: You know that "drawn work" where you pull the threads?
Reb: Like hemstitching?
LDC: You would work it like a spider web. She used to make scarves and even bonnets.
We didn't want to learn how to knit. We told mama, "That's old stuff."
Reb: What about crochet?
LDC: Yes, my sister knew how to crochet.
Reb: What about tatting?
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LDC: My younger sister is the only one who learned that. She made a little jacket for the
little first granddaughter and she made a little cap.
Reb: Now, what about your sports? Did you play baseball?
LDC: At school we learned to and we played on Sunday.
Reb: What about cooking?
LDC: Oh, yes. My mama saw to it we all learned to cook by watching her.
LMC: When did you all learn to make bread, mama?
LDC: My sister, Pauline, knew how to bake it. So my mama would get a pan of flour and
she'd make a nest and she'd put the hot salt in it and then she'd get some lard...hog lard...the
yeast was already getting soft...and do you know what I did the first time? I had it up to here,
and she didn't put her hands on it...she said, "Get some more flour, get it out of there. Bring
it up here, bring it up there.." And I was about nine or ten years old. Then when she saw that
I had it all (mixed) she said, "Let it stay. Let's cover it up." And we covered it up and let it
stay about an hour and a half and she would touch it. "All right, do it like this now (punching
it down), cover it up." At the second time (rising) she'd cut the pieces.
Reb: And were these the crusty loaves that we call French bread?
LMC: Yes, and she still makes it like that.
Reb: Now, did you, at that point, when the dough was rising, did your mother ever take the
dough and put the salsa on it and make what we call pizza today?
LDC: We used to make cuzza runi.
LMC: They never heard of pizza until World War II.
LDC: No. I knew pizza because my son used to mingle with the Italian boys from up north,
during the war. He'd say, "Mama, they asked me where we could go to get pizza." I would
say, "How do they make that pizza ?"He would say that they made it with tomato sauce.
LMC: Mama, what would you call that when you would put the olive oil and cheese and
bacon and roll it (dough) up and bake it....what was that called?
Reb: But this other that you are talking about, what do you call it, pizza, how do you spell
this word that you were calling it?
LMC: Cuzza runi or piggiolatti ?
Reb: Mother used to fix some with ham cracklings
LDC: When the bread was right. we used to make it thin and my mama would put a little olive
oil and salt and pepper. And then we used to get the salt bacon and cut into little flan pieces or
garlic first and then we would fry it and then put it all around with a little cheese and that
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grease, too, and then roll it and then when it got about like that we would turn it over and let it
rise.
LMC: Well, the cuzza runi or pasta fritta you've tasted that where you fry it. Mama, maybe
you could tell her what you all did on Sundays.
Reb: Tell me what you used to do on Sunday afternoons.
LDC: My mama wouldn't let us go out because the people had to wash the dishes and rest.
When we would dress (for Sunday visiting) we used to wear last year's white shoes, this
year's white shoes were for church, and I had a nice dress.
LMC: This was for staying at home.
LDC: And fixing our hair and sometimes we would go to our neighbor's and sometimes here
would come one neighbor. We had a long front porch and we'd get the chairs and put them
outside. First thing you know here would come another neighbor.
LMC: Mother, didn't you dress up because company might come and you didn't want them
to find you slouchy?
Reb: They had no communication by telephone so they had to be ready.
LDC: And so my mama would say, "Put some peanuts in the oven." We used to raise
peanuts and we had an old stove. We had a pan as big as the oven and we would make coffee
or get a watermelon and by five o'clock everybody would leave. The shoes we had to wear to
church we didn°t wear.
LMC: Tell her about the hats you wore to church.
LDC: We wanted a new hat every year when we were teenagers. Well, my mama had a box
with a top and leather lunges and so she put all of the hats in there, and we had umbrellas.
LMC: They didn't wear their hats in the wagon.
LDC: The flowers would get dusty. When we would reach the Parker°s house on 28th Street
at the edge of town we would put on our hats. The church was on the same street and
sometimes we would stop at the store. That store was ours. After church when we came back
we would stop at the store and buy groceries and we would eat something there, maybe bread
and olives or cheese and then when we were ready we would shop. It used to take us one hour
to get home and at the edge of town the hats would all go back into the box. Other people
would come to church with hats with faded flowers and they used to say, "Did you just buy
that hat." No, we just took care of them.
Reb: What was the name of the store that you stopped at? What was the address or name of
the street?
LMC: Was that the same store that you and daddy used to run?
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LDC: Sure. It was at 28th St. and Parker.
LMC: My grandparents bought that property and my daddy and mother ran that store. Then
-` it was called Canavespe's .
Reb: And was it near St. Anthony's Church?
LMC: Just two weeks ago we completed the deal and we sold that property to St. Anthony's.
They bought our one lot and then the two lots right directly across the street for a parking area.
LDC: The Canavespes had it for over seventy years.
LMC: When they got married Daddy already had the store, he was already living in town.
So she became a city girl when she got married.
LDC: My husband came from the service, after World War I, and he farmed with his daddy
and then he decided that he didn't want to farm.
Reb: The farming that your husband and his father were doing where was it close to?
LDC: Across the river in Burleson (County).
LMC: Near where that little chapel is.
Reb: Near San Salvador's?
LMC: Yes. (Reads from her story) "Not far from their home was Kosarek's Store. This was
a general store and had many things besides groceries. The store had thread, material, lace,
nails, hardware, etc. when telephones were first available, Kosarek's Store had the only
telephone. The people in this community always went to Kosarek's Store to call the doctor." I
also describe their house in this.
Reb: This was after your mother and dad married?
LMC: This was before. They didn't buy furniture and a lot of other things, but they never
were wanting.
LDC: You know when my daddy was in Burleson County he saved $4000 in thirteen years,
so he bought the land for $4000.
Reb: Now, this is the land where the Research Annex is today?
LDC: Yes, so he kept $1000 and he gave $3000 because he had to pull some houses and the
houses were here and there, but not the main one. In two years he paid for this land, it was all
one deed. My dad said, "I want my own deed."
Reb: When you all were farming what else did you raise besides cotton and grain to feed
with?
LMC: Corn, sorghum for the mules, sorghum and sugar canes. We used to peel it and eat if,
it was sweet, but it was small even small than my fmger...it was big like sugar cane.
Reb: What did you do for watering this cotton? Was it dry land farnung?
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LMC: There was no water. The good Lord was good to us. I only remember one drought
when we made three bales.
Reb: I know that in the late 1800s and eazly 1900s there were some bad floods in the
bottoms. There was a bad flood in 1921, do you remember that flood?
LDC: Yes, I can remember that, I can tell you.
Reb: What can you tell me about that flood?
LDC: Well, that flood wasn't as big as the 1913 flood. It was the biggest . It took houses.
My mother-in-law just had one house left, that's all, barn and everything. It took one big
house that had about twenty bales of cotton in it.
Reb: Well, wasn't there one in 1921, also?
LDC: Yes.
Reb: But you say that 1913 was the biggest?
LDC: Well, we climbed up in the house in Brazos County and we could see the river.
Reb: Now, this was when you were living out there on that farm?
LMC: Well, it was right there near Smetana but she said they could see the flood from the
roof on her house.
Reb: And you were ten when this flood came?
LDC: Yes.
Reb: Some people talk about a wave being so high it was like a tidal wave that they could see
coming.
LDC: Yes, it was so high it would knock a house down.
LMC: My father°s people, the Canavespes, were in Burleson County and all the men were at
one house and the women were at the other with the children. They were preparing the house
for the marriage of my aunt. The men started playing cards and they (got) caught and they got
into the ceiling (attic) of one house and the women and children got into the ceiling of the other
house and they stayed. How long?
LDC: Three days.
LMC: And they took bread and sheets and quilts up there with them.
LDC: And they broke the ceiling and went up into the ceiling (attic). They had built a levee
and they taxed all of them. Grandma even paid them money on their land.
Reb: Where would this levee have been built?
LDC: Right at the edge of the river.
LMC: Daddy was involved in Burleson County.
LDC: When it didn't break some of the water came down those creeks.
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LMC: Mama, didn't they say they thought somebody broke it?
LDC: Some places you could see where there had been a house, barn, chickens.
Reb: Something that I neglected to ask you earlier. Did you heaz your mother and father talk
about their ways in Sicily and their reasons for coming over here?
LDC: They were poor and couldn't make it. My mother said that she sure hated to leave her
mother, who was half blind and so he said, "Well, you stay and I'll stay two years and I'll
come back . "No, we'll come back together."
Reb: When they came did they come in through New Orleans, like so many of these other
Italians did?
LDC: They came through New Orleans.
Reb: And did your father work in the sugaz cane fields?
LDC: In the sugar cane fields...yes, two or three yeazs, I don't remember, for fifty cents a
day.
Reb: About would that have been, Mrs. Canavespe?
.:LMC: About 1894.
Reb: Do you have any idea how long they were working there in Louisiana before they came
to Texas?
LDC: About two or three years and then they went to Kansas City to see if mother and daddy
could find work because my uncle had a grocery store there and they couldn't find work. At
the time, men were being hired to work on the railroad which went to Henrietta, Oklahoma and
there were Indians. My daddy could tell us all about the Indians. So when they got there they
put up a tent and my daddy stayed three months and didn't send a letter to my mother and she
had a little boy.
Reb: Then was she in Louisiana?
LDC: No, she was in Kansas City with her brother.
Reb: Was this railroad being built to Oklahoma?
LDC: It was a branch that used to go back and forth. After three months a spider bit my
daddy and it was poisoned and he could hardly walk back to the tent. He said, "A spider bit
me and now I feel numb."
LMC: Well, he was very sick and they sent him back.
LDC: So, he told the boss, "This man can't work on the railroad." Well, what can we do,
well, when the train goes back for supplies, they put him on the train...it was not a passenger
train.
Reb: In a boxcar?
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50
LDC: Little boxcars, and so finally he found his way, and their little boy was about three
yeazs old. "Mama, daddy comes." (Papa arrivo). Mama was so glad. So then they
decided...they had a friend here, Mr. Cash, they were writing to each other. He had a son
who knew how to write and my uncle could read the letters. He said, °'You come here and
farm, I believe you'd do better." What did he do, my daddy he came here and my uncle
decided to come here, too, and some other people ...you know, where your mama is, too.
Reb: Dickinson.
LDC: So they farmed for two years, they had bad years. My uncle said, "I'm going back
and the other people, too." Mr. Cash told my daddy, "'Compare', you stay and we buy
another mule and we farm there." His son was fifteen years old. So he said, "Okay." So they
stayed, he loaned my daddy a hundred dollars and he bought a mule for forty dollars and he
bought twenty bushels of corn for the mule. And he got a little house somewhere. So they
farmed. So for the first fazm, my daddy paid that a hundred dollazs to that man.
Reb: What was the first crop?
LDC: With the first crop, he bought a plow for maybe seven dollazs, and my daddy bought
him a pair of shoes and they farmed the next year. They paid the bills and they had $2001eft
and they went on and on. So my daddy had the plow then, and this man told him, "You can
farm by yourself, now.°' So they asked the people who had the land if they would rent forty
acres of land. That°s all they could farm. "Yes." So he got another house and he farmed for
himself. Well, he hired the people to chop his cotton or what he and my mother couldn°t do.
They had bad luck then, two babies died and then we were born. So they started saving every
yeaz so that after thirteen yeazs they had $4000.
LMC: That's when they bought the property in Smetana. Let me add this: as neaz as I can tell
they came to the United States and landed in New Orleans in 1894. I wish I knew more. I did
try to go to find the ship°s log, I never was able to. So I put what they did in New Orleans, I
have it in here.
Reb: 1894. You don't have a month or anything like that? Well, I know how we can get the
ship's log.(The author has since found an entry in the Passenger List of Vessels Arriving at
New Orleans, 1820-1902. Microcopy No. 259, Ro1179, S.S. Montebello, Departing from
Palermo, Arriving in New Orleans, May 8, 1894 for DiMaria, Santo -age 38 - M -Farmer -
Could not read, nor write -Italy, Poggioreale, Loc. on ship: N1BD -1 pc luggage)
LDC: I don't know whether it was the Santa Maria...see he used to tell us all those things.
Reb: Well, do you by any chance, remember the name?
LDC: No.
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51
LMC: I have just a couple of chapters on Kansas City. And they came here, I think, as near
as I can tell. It was 1897 to Burleson County. And I put the little story about the man loaning
the money. That is in here. (Referring to a family history which she had recently completed).
Reb: When your mother and father were here was your father active in the Italian Benevolent
Society. You know there were different organizations.
LDC: No, we stayed home in the country and they didn't have any organizations.
Reb: I know that you had said that when you were growing up you had no problems with the
other ethnic groups.
LMC: I think they were lucky because I know some people felt that.
Reb: Yes, some people did. I think it depended upon what community you happened to have
settled in.
LMC: Later, I felt some discrimination, when it came to marriage. If you were going to
marry a Protestant, there was a problem there.
Reb: This was religious problem, if anything.
LMC: Right. Now, in school I didn't feel any discrimination myself, but I did notice it when
it came to marriage, but that's ancient history.
LDC: In my time, it was. A mother didn't want her son to marry (a non-Catholic).
Reb: -When your family came over, and being from Poggioreale, were there many families
from Corleone and Salaparuta close by to where you were living? Because I understand that
over in Sicily the families from Corleone and Salaparuta and Poggioreale didn't mix too much.
LMC: Even here.
Reb: And even here did they do the same thing?
LMC: Now, mostly where you were they were mostly Poggiorealese.
LDC: Just Fachorns were from Cefalu.
Reb: Cefalu is close to Lascari which is where my grandmother came from.
LMC: Even my mother and her two sisters all married Poggiorealese. And she said that
when Aunt Mary marred, the youngest one, grandma said, "Thank God, they all married
Poggiorealese." The reason for that was that they knew their families, and they didn't want
their daughters to marry anyone whose background they didn't know.
.Reb: I understand that after awhile that didn't seem to matter too much. I don't think I have
asked you how many children you have. You have Lena, I know and she had a brother, who
died.
LDC: Yes, the two children and the son's name was Henry Joseph.
LMC: He was killed in World War II.
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Reb: In what theater of operations was he?
LDC: Killed in an airplane crash.
LMC: He was in France.
Reb: Was he a pilot?
LMC: No, he was a radio gunner.
Reb: He was in the Air Force?
LMC: No, Air Corps. My daddy was in World Waz I.
LDC: When we were children, on Ascension Day (forty days after Easter) we would get up
before sun-up and make a fire and then put white grass on it so that it would make smoke and
the next door neighbor would also. They had a prayer that they used to say. They used to talk
to each other and say that they used to do this in Italy, also.
Reb: What was the significance of all of the smoke?
LDC: The smoke signified the Ascension of Christ into Heaven. And during Holy Week no
looking glasses (mirrors) were exposed. My mama used to put a towel over them and I would
ask, "How are we going to comb our hair?" She would say, "Look at each other."
Reb: I remember that during Lent and there was no music allowed.
LDC: And no singing of any songs except religious ones.
Reb: Are there any special holy days where you do things other than that...say certain days
where you bake...or the cooking of the wheat What holiday is that?
LDC: Santa Lucia.
Reb: Do you still do that?
LDC: Yes, we still do it.
Reb: What do you do?
LDC: We buy the wheat and the day before, you soak it, and the water turns yellow, and you
throw that water away and put in clean water and then that water gets yellow again. You then
put in more and then stazt cooking.
Reb: Where do you get this wheat?
LDC: For two years we have been getting it from Mike's Grocery in Bryan.
Reb: And does it look like little kernels?
LDC: Like wheat.
LMC: It is also called couscous. Have you ever eaten any?
Reb: Yes, I have.
LDC: It°s just like rice only it's brown.
Reb: Now, when you cook it you don°t season it, is that right?
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LDC: No, when you cook it gets mushy and you can put sugar or honey or syrup (on it).
We all say a prayer first, a prayer to Santa Lucia, to protect our eyes.
Reb: Are there any other religious holidays that you do something special for, besides the
more common ones such as Easter, Christmas and Good Friday? Was there anything special
about weddings... customs that were brought over from the Old Country, such as what might
have been done at your wedding?
LDC: Two or three days before, the mother, or if they didn't have a mother one of the
kinfolks, they will go to the house where they (the couple) are going to live and they clean it up
and the bed for the bride and groom would already be there. They would fill a cotton mattress
and sew it up and then make up the bed. They would settle all of the furniture and clean it.
They had already bought pots and pans to cook in, and even the "slop jar," everything.
Reb: And, of course, the bride had been saving in her hope chest all of this time.
LDC: And yeazs ago, after they got through eating dinner, they would put a trunk in the
middle of the room and she started....like my mama gave me about twelve sheets and she put
them all together and that many pillow slips and this lady would say, "Ten sheets," and the
other lady would say ,"Ten sheets." Then she would pick up the pillow slips, then so many
towels, and so many face towels.
Reb: So they listed everything that was in the hope chest.
LDC: They would get them out of there....our of the trunk and put them on top of
chairs...everything..then the last one was the pants.
Reb: The underwear.
LMC: Mama, let me interrupt you. Didn't the groom's mother and the bride's mother dress
the bride?
LDC: Yes.
Reb: Did they throw anything at the bride and groom, like we do today, like rice?
LDC: They did throw rice.
Reb: I remember the wedding candy, the candy covered almonds were always a favorite to
pass at a wedding.
LDC: No, we didn't have that. We had peanuts, parched peanuts and then they had candy.
Reb: And I suppose they had wedcling cakes then just like we do now?
LDC: No, years ago, they didn't have wedding cakes. The first cake we had was ours from a
friend of my husband's and a neighbor of my mother-in-law, Mrs. Gregg. She wasn't Italian,
all of them knew her, all of the Italians.
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54
LMC: People went to see Mrs. Gregg for advice or to read letters. Didn't she teach Grandma
Canavespe to make pies?
LDC: And to ice cakes.
Reb: Do you remember her full name?
LDC: Mary.
Reb: Was she married:
LDC: Yes.
Reb: Mrs. Mary Gregg. Did she live in Bryan?
LMC: No, in Burleson County. In fact, her family still owns that property there.
LDC: No, they haven't sold it, in fact, we haven't sold ours either.
LMC: But Mrs. Gregg was kind of a counselor and what about him, was he also?
LDC: She was the boss.
LMC: See, I remember her.
LDC: They all loved her and brought her presents. If there was something that needed to go
to the courthouse, they would tell her the story. They would get someone who knew how to
speak English and he would tell her.
LMC: She played a big part.
Reb: Yes, she was almost a legal counsel, too. Well, tell me again, if you didn't have a
wedding cake at the wedding what did you have?
LDC: Peanuts and food We got married at nine o'clock Saturday morning, we came from
the church around eleven o'clock, someone was at the house cooking, my mother and my
mother-in-law. They had already killed the calf and we had a house full. And then they started
dancing and then that night they all ate again, whoever was there. They came into the kitchen
and had meat and bread.
LMC: She and daddy didn't spend their first night together, because they all slept over. She
slept at her mother's and daddy slept in the seed house.
Reb: So, you didn't spend your wedding night with your husband?
LDC: No, the second night. My mother gave lum a pillow and a quilt and he went to the
seed house.
Reb: That was because everyone was there and you wanted to be together.
LDC: So, that morning for whoever was there..they fried eggs, made coffee and they had
biscotti. Then they started dinner, but the men folks helped, they made the "suga°° (tomato
sauce) outside, no meatballs. They cooked the pasta in big tubs. They put the meat in some
big pans and everybody would go get some meat and they had the bread right there and they
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55
would eat and the cheese was akeady grated. And they would pass beer and everybody would
eat and they started dancing again.
Reb: Who played at these weddings?
LDC: We had a friend who played the accordian.
Reb: Let me ask you about St. John's Day. There is what we call a bread, but it is not really
a bread, it is a seed called St. John's Bread. Do you know what it is?
LDC: No.
Reb: Another name for St. John's Bread is carob. You could buy it only at the drugstores,
the pharmacies, because it is considered a laxative. St. John's Bread is a seed pod about six
inches long and it is flat, and sometimes when it dries, it is a dark brown and is twisted. It has
a licorice flavor iand a treat for us children was when my grandpa would go to Galveston to
buy the things for his store, he always came back with a box of St. John's Bread, because you
ate it on St. John's Day. We loved it. It was that when St. John was traveling there would
times in the desert when that was all he had to eat.
LDC: St. John was the patron saint of lightening. My mama used to say "Santo Giovanni."
LMC: (Reading from her family history) "On St. John's Day we always exchanged presents
with our best friends. The presents were sent by someone other than the giver (similar to our
present day Secret Pals). The gifts usually consisted of material for a blouse, candy or fruit.
Lena's best friend was Bonnie Belle Piccolo. The boys celebrated this day also, they usually
sent their best friend a handkerchief or socks, and the gifts were sometimes delivered by a
sister. Sometimes, for fun, they boys would send a frog, or turtle, or ants in a box."
Reb: Now, do they still do this on St. John's Day?
...._LDC: No, they don't do it anymore.
Reb: Are there any other things like that, Mrs. Canavespe, that you remember? I am
planning to put some of this information, along with information from other interviews, into a
book and so I would like to have your permission to use some of this material when it is
written.
LDC: Well, you put it down like I have told you.
Reb: I will also send you a copy of this transcription and the accompanying tape for you to
have and I would like to thank you, Mrs. Canavespe, and you, Lena, for adding so much more
information and for helping to do this with your mother. I really do appreciate it.
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57
Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Josephine Frances Perrone Patranella (JP) with comments by Charles Marco
Patranella (CP) and Joseph C. Patranella (Jce P).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: August 8, 1988
Bryan, Texas
(Additional Note: Due to difficulties with the recorder the following information contained in the
first and second paragraphs did not record and is, therefore, being inserted in a condensed form.)
Josephine Frances Perrone was born 27 May 1918 in Steele's Store, Texas. Her father was John
Marco Perrone, born in Poggioreale (Province Trapani),Sicily and her mother was Johanna
DePuma, born in Steele's Store, Texas. Her maternal grandparents were Salvatore DePuma who
maiden name from a first marriage was Camorata. Her maternal grandfather was John DePuma.
Her paternal grandfather was Marco John (Giovanni) Perrone and her paternal grandmother was
Maria Scardino Perrone.
When her father arrived in the United States in about 1890. He was born 13 November 1886 so
that he was four years old at the time of his arrival. He came with his mother, father, half brother
and another brother. During the boat trip the father, Marco John, met with an accident, which
proved fatal and was buried at sea.
(Taped portion of interview begins)
Reb: So you were telling me that someone met her, they were asking for her husband's name and
she responded and told him what had happened.
JP: She went to live with this family, I never heard the man's name ever, and later on she and the
two sons began selling fruit on the street. After some time she remarried. Now what his name
was I don't know. All we know was that he was killed by lightening while he was working.
Reb: Do you know or recall how long she lived in New Orleans?
JP: It couldn't have been too long because she married again after this man died.
Reb: Do you recall having heard how she got to Texas? Or why she came?
JP: Never.
CP: The third husband was killed, also in a street accident.
Reb: She was widowed three times?
CP: Then she came to Texas and married a fourth time.
JP: She came to Texas before 1900. The reason I know is because of the purchase of land.
58
Reb: What was her name after this marriage?
JP: She married Joe Bonano.
Reb: Where did they set up housekeeping? Where did they live.
JP: They lived in Steele°s Store.
Reb: Do you know where in Steele's Store, the exact location?
JP: I sure do.
Reb: That's wonderful to know. Did you know that because of plat maps, or by word of mouth
through family members
JP: Well, we lived in the same house. My Grandfather Bonano, my step-grandfather, died
during the influenza epidemic.
Reb: About when was that, do you recall?
JP: In 1918. Evidently, it was in the earlier part, I would say, after September, and then just a
few weeks later, my uncle died, Paul Penrone, he was my father's brother. He died of influenza
on October 8, 1918. The reason I remember that, I can remember my dad saying that "The war is
over, but I've lost my brother, not during the war but just influenza." That was the same year I
was born.
Reb: There were some early floods here in the Brazos valley in the late 1800s, and I think there
was a bad storm in the early 1900s.
JP: 1913.
CP: Let me interject one thing here: the Joe Bonano that she married was a widower and he had
two sons and a daughter. Her grandmother (Josephine's) and Mr. Bonano had a daughter named
Gussie who is still living. Her home is still out there in Steele's Store, and she is eighty-seven
years old...we talked to her last week. She is still living. So mother still has one aunt from
(questioning Josephine)..who would the other aunt be?...Mary Bonano, a step aunt.
Reb: I'm glad you mentioned that. (to Josephine) Then you would have been too little for some
of the floods that I understand took place. I know there were some during the late 1800s but I
know there was also one in 1921.
JP: And in 1913.
Reb: Do you recall anything about those floods or having heard anything about them.
Josephine: The only thing I can remember is we were in a two-story house, a big two-story,
and many of the people, that were in the flood area came up .....until the rain was over...my
mother and daddy and grandmother.
CP: We have a friend, who was here yesterday, she'll beeighty-two Monday. She remembers,
as a little girl, going to stay at her grandmother°s house.
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59
Reb: That was in 1913?
CP: (Asking Josephine) Well, she's twelve years older than you. You're seventy and she is
going to be eighty-two, so that would be 1906 and she was seven, so that would have been in
1913. That's funny we were talking about that yesterday.
JP: The baby was born at Grandpa DePuma's place, I think she said.
CP: During the flood?
JP: She said that Grandpa DePuma didn't have atwo-story house.
Reb: Tell me what you remember as a little girl.
JP: I can remember as a little girl... but I think most of it is just hearing from the family, you
know, parents, that my mother had a sewing machine and a trunk. They had big windows and
they opened the windows because it probably would have blown the house over.
Reb: During the storm?
JP: They opened the windows and they could see things floating down there. They even saw the
pigs-get taken away in the water like that.
Reb: Did you attend school in Steele's Store?
JP: I attended school from 1925 until I went to ninth grade there.
Reba. Now, that's that big building that we talked about some time back?
JP: It's still there.
Reb: Were Catholic Church services ever held in that school building?
JP: Many a Sunday. Once a month a priest from St. Anthony's Church came out to Steele's
Store and a couple of nuns came out with him and they taught us all songs.
Reb: Would the records of those people who went to that little church, to the services there, be at
St. Anthony's? Or people who were married there or babies born there? Were they registered as
part of St. Anthony's parish?
CP: Yes.
JP: Yes, several people, we, ourselves, have gone back, even when Father Bravi ..(was there ?)
Reb: And St. Anthony's Church had been built in Bryan and they were also holding services in
Steele's Store?
JP: Well, this wasn't on a regular basis. It was like one Sunday out of the month.
Reb: What was the reason for doing that? Was it because of the lack of transportation in coming
into town?
JP: Right. Most of the time the kids out there had to learn catechism before they could receive
First Communion and also Confirmation.
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60
Reb: Would any of those people have gone to any other church other than to that little church or
coming into town to St. Anthony's?
JP: Before the St. Anthony's we have today, there was a St. Anthony's right down the street
hers.
Reb: Now I know that the San Salvador Mission was built before St. Anthony°s Church, but the
church service that you are talking about was held in Steele°s Store. Was that before the San
Salvador rrrission?
JP: After. Before then there was really no place to hold a service out there. Now, years later we
had a little school building that had two rooms because the big school couldn't handle all the
students.
Reb: So that was the smaller school in addition to the big one that is out there now?
JP: That little one isn't there, it's now on Sandy Point Road and is being used for equipment
storage.
Reb: Do you know the location of that building?
JP: Oh, yes. We have land just across from that. It°s like I said..there is all of that farm
equipment there.
JceP: This guy has bought and has a little office (in that building) and (it) is his headquarters.
CP: I think San Salvador was established by the Spanish.
JP: No.
Reb: No, it was erected in 1903. San Salvador Mission Church was, as I understand it was
build as a result of a vision that one of the Italians had.
JP: One of the ladies was a little girl seven years old, I think, She kept telling her parents about
building a church and they did. 'The community in Burleson County, where San Salvador is, got
together and they build this little building and it is still there. It is beautiful inside.
Reb: When was Steele°s Store school built?
JP: There was one school right next to my Grandfather Del?uma's...just ahalf ablock from his
house. That school building was for kids up to fifth or sixth grade. It was torn down but we did
have church services in that in the 1900s.
Reb: Before San Salvador was built, where did the early settlers from the 1880s attend church?
JP: Well, they had services there, but I think Msgr. Gleissner used to go out and have Mass
there.
Reb: Now, was he at St. Joseph's Church at that time?
JP: Right and he also started church services at Hearne.
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61
Reb: Now, I would like to know more about what you did as a young girl. What kind of
activities were you involved in? Did you learn embroidery or sewing or were you an outdoor
person who enjoyed athletics?
JP: Outdoor. We played games.
Reb: Did you play games that are still being played today?
JP: I don't think so. We played house and we played with little cars and trucks that were
wooden. My brothers would put little wheels on them.
Reb: What about sports like softball or baseball?
JP: We did play baseball at school. We had a team and sometimes we played girls against the
boys and we played basketball.
Reb: Did many of the girls learn to sew or embroider during those days?
JP: Most of them did, I suppose, but a lot of them didn't because there were so many of the
family members worked in the fields. We had to hoe cotton. Daddy always told us were more
trouble to pick.
Reb: So did he raise cotton, primarily, on the farm?
JP: cotton, corn, alfalfa.
Reb:... This was a family farm, but did he have other people to help besides the family?
JP: Right. They had to get Mexicans and Blacks to come and help. They stayed in the little
plantation houses.
Reb: Of course, you didn't have a lot of mechanization at that time so I guess plow and horse are
what you had to use for plowing in those days?
JP: We had mules and cultivators.
Reb: What about the watering of these plants was this mostly dry land farming, at that time?
JP: Dry land.
Reb: I guess you just had to rely on God to send rain. I imagine you had kitchen gazdens?
JP: Always.
Reb: What did you raise?
JP: Italians always cook eggplants, cucuzza, fennel, fava, winter greens, mustazds, turnips,
tomatoes, onions, potatoes....sweet and Irish potatoes.
Reb: Well, there was hardly anything that you couldn't raise out there.
JP: It was like during the depression, people didn't suffer for food because you had everything,
you know. You had milk, eggs, and chickens.
Reb: Did you churn butter, too?
JP: Churned butter.
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62
Reb: What about preserving, canning and making your tomato paste and tomato sauce, things
like that?
JP: Now, I remember my grandmother making what they called salsa, do you know what this
is? She would get this all prepared then she would set it on a big board and set that on the porch
upstairs and she would put her salsa on that to dry out.
Reb: What about grapes? Did you raise grapes for making wine?
JP: No, no grapes...only a few vines.
Reb: What about customs that your family were involved in that they brought over from the "Old
Country?" Are there any that stand out in your mind more than any others? I know the St. Joseph
Altar, for one thing, is one of the major customs that is still being carried on but aze there others?
JP: No.
CP: The naming of children after their parents, for one.
JP: I think I have my daddy's name wrong on that. When he was a little boy and started school,
he was always Marco but later, as he grew up, he had his name written J.M. Perrone, Sr.
CP: Americanized, it was J.M. Perrone, Sr., but it was really was John Mazco Perrone,
Giovanne Marco Perrone.
JP: But his name was Marco.
CP: Yes, but he later took......
JP: When he started to school my grandmother gave that information that way.
Reb: Back to customs...were there any special home remedies that were used?
JP: If you had high fever they would get a big cucuzza (squash) leaf and place it on the forehead
of the child or whoever was sick and then they would take bread and mix it with a little whisky and
water, make a poultice and lay it on his stomach. You could tell when the cucuzza leaf was really
drawing fever, because it would dry up.
Reb: Did you wet that leaf?
JP: No. It was put on right from the vine.
Reb: What eazaches?
JP: Most of them used olive oil, but sometimes they would get a little squaze of material and put
black pepper in it and squeeze it up tight and just that and olive oil and let it set.
Reb: Would this be ground up or whole peppercorns.
JP: No the powdered. Then you put that into the eaz.
Reb: What about colds, for example, if you had a head cold and a stopped up nose?
JP: Take Vick°s salve and if you had a wood heater, you'd take some of the ashes or that coal,
and you would put it in a little pan of some kind, put Vick's salve over it and inhale it.
6
~,~t.
63
Reb: And put a towel over your head so that you could breathe in the steam.
JP: If we had a cough we'd put two or three drops of either kerosene or turpentine in a spoonful
of sugar and keep that in your mouth. Then swallow it and it would stop the cough. Now, if we
had a big cut, we'd come home running and crying that we were hurt, so we'd take a broom and
go outside on the porch and see if we could get a spider web called fillina (filament), clean it off
some and I think we put it on dry. I guess I've forgotten. It would stop the bleeding. I know of
one instance when my grandmother was really sick, when I guess her blood pressure was up
pretty high. They had someone mail leeches from New Orleans, that suck the blood and put these
on her. I can remember that every spring she would break out on those places, because they
hadn't removed the leeches in time. I guess it kept drawing blood, but she got over it.
Reb: What about other internal medicines? If you had high blood pressure did they take
anything?
JP: Epsom salts and, also, garlic.
Reb: ~ What about cliseases of the skin? I am sure that when you were out picking cotton you
probably fell heir to a lot of different types of things. Did you make salves to put on the skin for
ant bites or bee stings, such things that you might encounter when working in the fields.
JP: I guess we never got bit.
Reb: You were lucky. Did you have brothers and sisters?
JP: We were five girls and three boys. The first baby that was born died at nine months old. I
have a brother, two sisters and myself and then my brother, Paul and Mike, Joanna and Rosalie.
Reb: You had abuilt-in household full of workers, didn't you?
JP: Well, we had our own little chores.
Reb: How were the chores delegated. How did you manage this in a household with so many
children.
JP: My older sister did a lot of the cooking and helped mother and I and my sister, Rena, had our
chores like doing the dishes and the kitchen and the dining room where we ate, we had to sweep
the kitchen. We didn't have hot water, but we had a faucet.
Reb: But you did have running water in the house?
JP: We had it in one place in the kitchen later, but in earlier times it was just at the edge of the
porch. And there was a big artesian well about fifty yards from the house.
Reb: I didn't realize that there were artesian wells out there.
JP: They did out at Steele's Store, everybody had them.
Reb: Were the foods that your mother cooked typical Italian foods?
JP: No, not really, but we would have spaghetti and meatballs. -
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Reb: hiow often would you have these?
JP: Always, every Sunday.
Reb: Was that a Sunday ritual?
JP: 'That's right, and we would have potatoes fixed different ways. Cood, fresh corn either
roasted or just cut off the cob and fried, and that was delicious.
Reb: Yes, I've heard about that. Were there any special recipes perhaps that your mother f xed
that you are still using and have taught your children to use?
JP: IViy mother never used a recipe, but one thing that is a real favorite of my own is a birthday
cake that I always make special for birthdays and all of the kids use it. Joanne uses it, too.
Reb: What°s the name of the cake?
JP: °'1Vlother°s Birthday Cake!"
Reb: Is it a sponge cake?
JP: No, it is one that you make with sugar and you use a whole egg in it and flour. We made our
own icing with regular sugar and egg whites and we put a little coconut on top of the cake. Also,
we put pineapple between the layers. It is real moist.
CP: But it is really just plain or just the white icing.
Reb: Was this a cooked icing, the white icing that you would beat and cook?
CP: You might want to talk about how we made sausage and ham.
JP: I have to tell something else. When we were kids, daddy had a bunch of pigs. We had an
old mama we called a sow. Every now and then that old sow had to be bred so he would leave it
with different ones in the area...those who had males, boars. So all of us girls were put in the
back room so that we couldn't see the breeding take place.
Reb: That was '°X'° rated.
~P: That's right. Well, there were shutters on the outside of the house we would open the
windows and open the shutters a little bit, just a little, so we could see what was going on. First
thing you they'd take the old boar back and in three or four months there were a bunch of pigs.
When they killed a hog, in those days, you would kill it with a knife and they would take it and put
it on a slide (boards on a slant) and get up close to the water well. And right in that area you had a
big pot of water boiling...one of those big black pots for outside. They would dip that water out
and pour it on the hog, pig, so it would soften the hair. Then they took sharp knives and scraped
it. Afterwards, they would hang it up and slit it open and take all of the intestines out and
everything else. They would leave it out every night to freeze good.
Reb: So this would be in the winter?
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JP: In the winter. The next day they would cut off parts, cut the fat off and the skin would be
made into "cracklin°s." The fat that was with the skin, most of it would be cut off to make lard.
They would cook it and cook it until it became real thick and they would get a little pinch of soda,
put it in and it would turn light...just like Crisco or something.
Reb: Did you make a lot of Italian sausage at that time?
JP: Daddy had a big table where we would cut it up, the lean pieces and we had this big grinder.
Reb: Did you have fun blowing the casings just like we used to do?
JP: We had to wash them which was the worst and had to clean out the insides good.
Reb: I have vague memories of my grandfather doing it, but it seemed to me that they rubbed
them with a lot of salt, which served as an abrasive.
JP: I think they did that after we washed them, then daddy would put them into a bucket. I guess
that's what he did then. But the day he killed the pig was the day we'd have fresh liver for lunch.
Reb: Would one hog be sufficient for your family or did you have to do this more than one time
(during a season)?
JP: They would do this a couple of times. But what would happen when you made the sausage,
you would some to this family and some to that.
Reb:. What about smoking (the pork)?
JP: No. I remember once daddy salted it down. Once we had a home demonstration agent to
come out to the house and daddy killed a calf. We cut it up and we put it in jars, a whole bunch of
it. After about a week, we hadn't eaten any of it, I guess because we were saving it for other days,
when this lady, Miss Roten (sp?) came out to help put it up and showed us everything to do. After
a week she came over and said, "Look, I am worried, I don't know whether it is going to be good
to eat, it may be spoiled" It was fermenting already so we had to take it all and throw it out.
Reb: That was a shame.
JP: Mother used to cook a lot of chili sauce with cabbage and tomatoes into a kind of relish.
Reb: What was your favorite food as a youngster?
JP: It must have been everything.
Reb: What about macazoni and spaghetti? Did you mother make all of that herself or did she buy
it?
JP: She bought it, but I do remember her making it once in a while. It was too much trouble to
make it for ten or eleven people.
Reb: When she did make it, what kind would she make?
JP: Flat noodles. She would roll it out and cut it in strips.
Reb: Did she make her own bread?
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JP: We made bread about three times a week.
Reb: Was this the long crusty loaf we call French bread or the Italian crusty loaf? Or was it light
bread?
JP: But she didn't put all that stuff in it..in those days she used flour, salt, a little dab of sugaz
yeast, lard and mixed it up good and turned it over and let it be a big mound, covered it and let it
rise.
CP: They would come home school and eat it.
JP: One of us would cut this end off and one would cut off the other end and the top and bottom.
We loved to eat hot bread with sugaz on it. We loved it. and a lot of the times we would come in
and take the cream off of the milk and use that on it. And in the wintertime, mother always had
things like fresh greens cooked and sweet potatoes baked and a pot of pinto beans and things like
that.
Reb: Now these are things that she picked up from having lived here rather than from her own..
CP: Well, she was born here.
Reb: Well, that's right.
JP: Now, daddy loved what we called faccia d'vecchio (face of an old person) and some called it
sphengiuni with anchovies.
CP: When grandma and grandpa (Josephine's parents) saw each other for the first time and the
coffee cup?
JP: Oh, yes! 1Viother was going to school and the house was here and the railroad was here
(gesturing) and there was a cow lot right here....well, through the day, when mother was milking
or something, daddy would come by and see her in the cow lot.....couldn't be too often ...because
you might have gotten .......Anyway, the night he proposed to mother, my grandmother and
grandfather on both sides, well it wasn't on both sides...stepfather and mother...my daddy
proposed to mother...mother could not be in there but daddy was in the same room.
Reb: He asked the parents if he could marry her?
JP: Right.....On those days the parents came with the boy...my mother had to stay out of the
room...she wasn't seen. But she used the keyhole ....mother was just wonderful. She would
look through that keyhole to see where he was sitting and she watched, the cup stayed on the table
after they drank coffee. So she said that when they left she went in there and grabbed that cup and
kissed it all azound.
Reb: I think that is a pretty sweet story, I really do. I guess at the time when your mother and
father were courting I guess the traditions or the feelings of the people from Poggioreale,
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Salaparuta and Corleone were not very prevalent at that tune. Because I understand that when
those families came over here they didn't realty settle all together and sort of kept themselves
apart, but with time those barriers were broken.
JP: Out of Steele's Store most of them were from Corleone and Poggioreale. (Called Corleonese
or Poggiorealese). But mother and daddy got married and worked and got along.
Reb: Is there anything else you can think of prior to the time you and your husband met?
JP: My brother had gotten out of high school and was wanting a job. He came into town and in
those days an Italian wasn't wanted for anything.
CP: Racial discrimination.
JP: So as always, we went into Bryan. We were always cleaned up and looked nice, with our
good clothes on. One day my brother went in, and he asked this guy who was the head of WPA
(Works Progress Administration), for a job. His name was Jim Martin and he was in the old
Pazker-Astin building where he had his office and hardware store. So my brother went and told
him he would like to go to work, and get a job. So he said, "You want a job, with a white shirt on
and dress pants on and you're looking for a job?" (My brother said) "Well, what do you want me
to do, come up here smellingyou know, dirty and all?" He didn't get a job, he never did.
Reb: So you feel that during those times that feelings of discrimination against the Italians were
rather high?
JP: Even in grade school ...well, really there were more Italians in the school than there
were.......
CP: I graduated from high school in 1960 and there was still evidence (of discrimination).
It was not so direct but it was very indirect.
_-; JceP: As for the city commissioner's job...no one hardly wanted an Italian to run (for office).
CP: Despite all the intermarrying.
JP: Do you know Johnny Lampo?
Reb: Yes, I had first hand experience with that when I was growing up, too. Were there any
problems with being Catholic, any discrimination.
JP: Not that I knew.
Reb: Mostly for being Italian?
- JP: Yes, we were mostly all Italians out there and we had our little church and the school
building.
Reb: I guess you all were very much involved with church activities when you were growing up,
being so far out.
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68
JP: We had Sunday school every Sunday. As I said earlier, the nuns and the priest would come
and different families would fix lunch, dinner, for them. Mother and daddy often had the nuns
over.
CP: I think they came into town on feast days. You had your catechism, I'm sure, but when
they came into town it was on feast days, and you celebrated that.
JP: On St. Anthony's Day, way back in the time when the roads were muddy, they would come
in buggies and it would take several hours to get in. I can remember one time Sister Rena and I
were sitting in a little buggy, aone-seater, and our backs were to the horses, and because of that
our dresses would sometimes get dirty. Well, mother always brought extra dresses and we'd go to
her brother, who lived in Bryan, and change and get dressed up for church. When we would start
out it would be dark. We would have two buggies, a small one and a large one, and we'd be over
at my uncle's and get all cleaned up. Well, the night before the feast day Father Bravi would have a
band playing.
Reb: Was the band from one of the schools?
JP: I guess it was, it was mostly a school band. Then the next day he would have a little stand
fixed with selling ice cream and soda pop.
CP: Even I remember up until the 1960s...unti11962, we had it at the church and it was just a
festival...nothing like it is now, with the auction and all.
Reb: It was just mainly eating and visiting?
CP: Right, very much a social and a religious thing. And it was a lot more fun than it is now.
JP: Another thing that I can think about is Holy Thursday night we came in and would go to
confession and then Mass at midnight and several men would sing all night long while the Blessed
Sacrament was exposed....and it was just beautiful in Italian.
Reb: What about the feasts of All Saints and All Soul's Day? Were there any particular traditions
that you followed for those two days?
JP: On November 1, All Saints Day, we would all put our shoes behind the door and the next
morning we would find an apple or raisins in them.
Reb: And who was it who was supposed to have brought these gifts?
JP: The saints.
Reb: It was almost like a Christmas holiday.
JP: It was.
Reb: Only instead of exchanging gifts the children usually received things?
JP: You put the shoes behind the door. Has anyone told you that?
Reb: Yes. Do you have anything to add to that story?
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CP: Mother, what about the Christmas holiday?
JP: Well, we would always go to my grandmother's, my mother°s mother, and, of course,
daddy and mother would come into to town and buy a bunch of apples and oranges and nuts, but
you didn't get them until Christmas.
Reb: Fruit and nuts were a favorite gift of a long time ago and, you know, oranges, especially.
JP: Now, you offer a piece of fruit to a kid and they turn way from it.
CP: It's sad, children have so much, it's truly sad.
Reb: That's right. They have lost sight of some of these things. Did your parents make salads
with fruits...speaking of fruits?
JP: Yes, we did.
Reb: I remember an orange salad that my grandfather used to like, sliced orange with a little olive
oil and salt and pepper on it.
JP: Mother used to make ambrosia.
CP: Grandpa was later a justice of the peace. People would bring birth certificates and he would
. ~ record the births and the deaths.
Reb: Well, is there anything else that you can think of. I am still wanting you to tell me how
you met,your husband.
CP: They went to the same church so that they were always together.
JP: He (her husband) said that we went to the same school together, but I didn't know him. I
never knew him. I went to college and came back and still.
Reb: I didn't know that you had gone to college. Where did you go?
JP: Southwest Texas (State Teachers' College).
CP: She was a schoolteacher.
Reb: I didn°t know that. So did you finish college?
JP: At San Marcos.
Reb: Where did you teach school?
JP: Over in Burleson County for about four years and then I taught in Brazos County for about
four years.
Reb: What were the names of the schools?
JP: The Gregg School.
Reb: And the one here in Brazos County?
JP: Wixon Prospect. I started out and I was making....my check would have been eighty dollars
but it was seventy-six dollars because they took out four dollars for Teachers' Retirement.
Reb: This was for a month's teaching?
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JP: Yes.
Reb: Of course, in that day and time, relatively speaking, it was probably good, wasn't it?
CP: She had to live there close to the school.
Reb: And had to pay for living expenses?
JP: Which was like five dollars for a room which was very little.
Reb: What did you teach?
JP: I taught first, second, third and fourth grades.
Reb: You earned every bit of that money.
JP: I did...I really did.
CP: And her two older sisters were teachers, also. They used to ride the train to San Mazcos.
Reb: And so they also went to Texas State Teachers' College?
JP: At that time, but it is a university now. The way that we started off going to school was that
my oldest sister borrowed fifty dollars from my Grandfather DePuma and fifty dollazs from
Grandmother Bonano. This took care of her for a whole year.
CP: Isn°t that amazing!
,TP: But anyway, when she started teaching she sent my sister, Rena, off to college and when I
got ready to go I got out and sold subscriptions to what we called, at the time, Bryan News. It
was a newspaper that came out once a week, and I'd sell subscriptions. Well, I learned this, if I
sold them in Brazos County, I made fifty cents for each one, if I sold outside of Brazos County, I
made a dollar. So I didn°t waste much time in Brazos County and we knew all the people in the
surrounding areas, I went to Burleson county and I went to Robertson County and got my dollar
for each one.
Reb: Were you married when you were teaching school or was this after you married?
JP: I was single, when I first started. After I married I taught for four years, but he (her
husband) was hiring a butcher in the store for more than I was making per week. He was
probably making thirty dollars a week and I was making about twenty something. So I thought,
well heck, I'll just stop teaching and get in the business with him.
Reb: So that's what you did. What kind of business were you in then?
JP: Grocery.
Reb: Now, how did you start going together?
JP: When we were coming up and promoted to the tenth grade, a county bus brought us all to
school. I was in school there for two years, but I never saw him nor heard of him. On Sundays
there was always somebody getting marred. We had big weddings and D.D. Catalina and Frances
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Patranella were getting married and we were invited to the wedding. It was at the Fellowship Hall
where we had a dance hall. We would go out.
Reb: Was this at St. Anthony's Church?
CP: The reception was held where the Fellowship grounds are now.
JP: There were a couple of weddings on Saturday mornings. In those days they got married on
Saturday, had a dance on Saturday night and again Sunday before the bride and groom left.
Anyway, I was dancing with Sam Patranella. He said, "I'm dancing 'Home Sweet Home' with
you, after we dance I would like for you to meet a friend of mine." Well, this friend happened to
be Joe.
Reb: Were they related?
JP: Yes, they were first cousins. So, we got to seeing one another pretty regulazly, but only
coming into town. One night my sister, Rena, and I double dated. He and his cousin, that
introduced him to me, and we all went to the show, didn't we (to Joe)? Somehow or another I had
lus high school ring on and we went home, daddy and mother were in bed. Mother sat up and
asked us how the evening was...we said, "Fine." One thing led to another and I had this ring. I
said, "You all can have this...I don't know if I like it very much." My daddy was lying there and
he sat straight up in the bed and said, "That's the way these darned girls are. You meet a good guy
and you don't appreciate it."
JoeP:--He was on my side, wasn't he.
Reb: About how long would you say that you all went together before you decided to marry?
JP: That was in about October of '40 and the September of the next yeaz (1941) we got married.
I have a good little thing to tell you. Jce came in to see me where I was teaching at Gregg School
and one night we decided we were going to go to the show in Caldwell. I wasn't supposed to be
doing that...that was out of line.
JceP: We slipped out, didn't we?
JP: We went, and when we got there we knew more people with other women's husbands and
husbands with other women, but it never got out. And it never got out that we went to the movie.
Reb: So you were married in 1941?
JP: September 1, 1941
Reb: How many children have you had?
JP: Four, two girls and two boys.
Reb: What are their names?
JP: Charles is the oldest. Then we have a daughter, Janice, and a daughter, Anna Jo and a son
Michael. Our oldest, Chazles, taught school for several yeazs and later decided he wanted a liquor
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store and so he opened a liquor store. After he was in it for some time, he just sold out and started
working on taxes, income taxes. Our oldest daughter, had quit teaching for ten years, or eight
years, and she went back, after her children were older and went back to school at night and got
her Master°s degree. She attended the University of Texas at San Antonio.
Reb: Who did she marry?
JP: She married Walter Albert, who is a statistician/mathematician at Brooks Air Force Base. He
has a federal job there. Our younger daughter is an accountant with Texas Transportation Institute
at Texas A&M and has been doing real well for eleven years.
Reb: And who clid she marry?
JP: She married Fred Mitchell. He is with the Agricultural Experiment Station at Texas A&M.
They both have real good jobs there. They have a son, Joseph, eight yeazs old and another, Mazk,
who is three and a half. And our younger son has been in ...........?...since '77. He's married
and his wife, JoAnne is from Arlington.
Reb: What was her maiden name?
JP: Reazdon.
CP: They aze originally from New York.
JP: They have a little daughter named Lucille Josephine and a son named Joe Reardon.
Reb: And tell me when you and your husband married were there any specific Italian traditions
that were followed in your wedding or was your wedding pretty much the way they are held these
Gays?
JP: Ours was a fast marriage. (laughter) What happened was that he was going to be inducted
into the service, so about Friday evening, my father-in-law and daddy and mother-in-law, mother
and JoAnne decided that it would be best if we married before he went into the service....Monday
morning, we did not have the banns announced, we didn't have time for that. I had taught Sunday
school and cateclsm from the week that I had taught school.
CP: She originated catechism and Sunday school classes for the children at St. Anthony°s.
JP: The CCD classes, I originated them.
Reb: That°s wonderful. It's an ongoing memorial to you.
JP: So on Friday afternoon, after school, I would teach the kids in Burleson County, because
you couldn't teach in the school building during school hours. That was a "no-no.'° I do want to
say that both of the grandsons have been in the Gifted and Talented Program all through grade
school and, now, the older one, Michael, is in a health cazeer school in San Antonio. If you intend
to be a doctor you can attend that. They are 16 and 14 and you have to be smart to attend and
accepted. They have good report cards. They would come home with 100s in everything.
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JceP: In those days (early days) some teachers seem to give pleasure in giving Fs and Ds, etc.
Reb: More personal feelings seem to enter into the grading.
JP; If a teacher wasn't going to get her job for the next year she would flunk the kids of the
trustees because she didn't get the job. But when school started...?....kids got into the right
grade. I have a couple of my teachers who are still living and about 2 months ago she and her
husband got divorced and she remarried Her name was Hearne. She married a wealthy man. Joe
and I went to see her about two and a half or three years ago and she and her sister came down and
visited us about two years ago. She called and wanted to know if we could go by and visit her at
her sister's house. It was real nice, she's a sweet lady. Then I have one of my grade teachers that
lives between her and Smetana. We didn't get to go there but I talk with her. I call them both on
Teacher's Day,
Rebe So you do maintain your contacts. Okay. Thank you all very much.
17 17
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75
Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mr. Joseph C. Patranella (Jce P) with comments by Charles Marco Patranella
(CP) and Josephine Patranella (JP).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: August 11, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Mr. Patranella, what does the "C" stand for?
Jce P: Charles.
Reb: Joseph Chazles. Where were you born?
Jce P: Bryan, Texas.
Reb: Do you mind telling me what your birthday is?
Jce P: September 24, 1915.
Reb: And who were your pazents?
Jce P: My pazents were Chazlie Patranella and my mother's name......do you want her maiden
narrie?
Reb: Yes.
Jce P: Jennie Carrabba.
Reb: And where were they born?
Joe P: Well, my mother was born in Taft, Louisiana. T..A..F..T. 1889.
Reb: Taft, Louisiana. 1889. And your father?
Jce P: My father (was born) in Brazos County in 1890.
Reb: Where specifically in Brazos County was he bom? Do you know?
Jce P: Well, they called it Cameron Ranch Settlement.
Reb: Yes, I've seen that referred to in some of the papers. Approximately, where would that
be?
Jce P: That would be about 4 miles north of Bryan.
Reb: What about your grandparents? Can you give me their names? Or any information on
them?
Jce P: Well, my father's.......on my father's side, my grandfather was named Biaggio
Patranella..... B .. i.. a.. g.. g.. i.. o.
Jce P: And my grandmother's name was Benidita .
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Reb: Benidita. Do you remember her maiden name?
Jce P: Pomazo.....P..o..m..a..r..o.
Reb: And on your mother's side?
Jce P: On my mother's side: her father's name was Paul Carrabba.
Reb: C..a..r..r..a..b..b..a. All right.
Joe P: And my grandmother's name was Ursula ...and I don't know her last name, supposedly
Maringo...my dad said at one time.
Joe P: Maringo.....g...o..
Reb: But you're not certain of that. So it would be your grandparents who emigrated to this
country.
Joe P: Yes.
Reb: Can you tell me anything about their emigration here? Where did they enter the U.S. and
when did they enter the U.S.? Maybe first, I should ask you where they were born? If you can
tell me that.
Jce P: Well, both of them in Corleone, Italy.
Reb: And were they manned when they came to the United States?
Jce P: No, but my Grandfather Patranella.....he and a neighbor....
Reb: That's Biaggio.
Jce P: He and a neighbor, named Mike Pomara (sp.?) came on a cattleboat and landed in New
Orleans.
Reb: New Orleans. About what date would that be.....what yeaz?
Jce P: I'd say about 1880. Then they worked in the cane fields there for several yeazs.
Reb: Carrabbas.....Now they were born in Corleone, also. Right.
Jce P: They landed in New Orleans, too.
Reb: About the same time?
Jce P: I imagine pretty close.
Reb: And did he also work in the cane fields?
Jce P: He worked in the cane fields, also.
Reb: Do you have any idea about how long they were in Louisiana before they came over to
Texas?
Joe P: I'd say, at least, three or four yeazs.
Reb: Okay, do you have a story to tell us about the grandparents?
JP: Tell her about when your grandpazents married.
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7~
Jce P: They came to Texas...they were young. Well, the main reason was because they had to
serve in the Army for a dollar a month, and then when they raised their wheat there was a
government was picking up a portion of it just like we pay an income tax now.
Jce P: And my Grandfather Patranella said that, "One of these days," I remember him saying,
"we'll have that in the United States." And we do have income tax.
Reb: That's right.
Jce P: Anyway, they came to Texas and went to farming cotton. And my other grandparents, I
think they were married in Louisiana . Anyway, so Patranella and this guy, Pomara, came to
Texas and they decided it's time to get married, you know. So they had a few dollars and they
said, "You send for your sister and I'll send for my sister and we'll just swap."
Reb: Oh.....well, this was a common thing, wasn't it?
Jce P: And that really happened. Anyway, they married and the Patranellas had five boys and a
girl. Well, the girl died as a ten or twelve-year old and this left the five boys. And when my
daddy was six months old and they were playing in a room where the fireplace was lit and he fell
into the fire and burned his face. And he had a scarred face all his life. My grandfather took him
to New Orleans. In those days the doctors didn't know too much to dress his face and pull the
rag off and took all his skin off. In the Carrabbas there were two girls: my mother and a sister,
and theirs is a real story. This man and his wife had a baby girl born and the mother died in
childbirth, so my grandparents just took it over. They raised the baby until she was about ten or
twelve years old. Meantime, the father moved to New York and while he was there he
remarried. And he came back to Texas and took her back to New York and several years later she
died. It was sad.
Reb: What stories do you remember hearing your parents talk about. Since your parents were
born here in the States, they have probably relayed to you stories about your grandparents.
Jce P: Well, I remember my grandpa Patranella said that he'd never return to Italy.
Reb: Why is that?
Jce P: Anyway, when they all retired they all moved to town and they were living in a little
slick neighborhood. There were about eight or ten couples that came from Italy. They'd get up
and talk at night and I would be listening to them talk and some of those old guys that came from
Italy would brag about the great country and how they would like to go back and see it. And
he'd say, "If I loved Italy as much as you did, I'd stay there. No way am I going back." And he
never did go back.
Reb: Well, why did they come here? Was it for economic reasons?
Joe P: Well, I think so.
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Reb: And how did they know to come here?
Jce P: Well, they°d just hop cattle boats and came as stowaways, you know.
Reb: Did they see any of those advertisements that I understand that the Bryan business men
had placed in newspapers abroad?
Joe P: Well, now that is what happened here in Bryan. We had a guy named Saladiner, you
probably heard of him. Joe Saladiner, settled here and was semi-educated and a very good
talker. He started a settlement of Italians here in Bryan. And all these people hitting New
Orleans would say, "We'll go to Bryan where Saladiner is.'° And he would place them. And
then Saladiner got acquainted with the county judge and sheriff and all that and he spoke for the
Italian people. See, my grandparents couldn't read and write, neither could my mother nor dad,
but they had a lot of horsesense. You could not figure my dad
Reb: They were willing to work, to really make a sacrifice, too. This man was probably called
a procurer, labor procurer who made the arrangements to get these people, find jobs for them and
places to live and all, too, to help them.
Jce P: So my Grandpa Patranella came to this country and, although he couldn't read nor
write, couldn°t speak English, he got to buying land, he got to trading and swapping, went into
the grocery business partnership, and then he resold the land and financed it. As I said, no
education at all and he came a long way. My Grandpa Carrabba, he was kind of cool, he didn't
advance as faz as my other grandfather, but he didn't work as hard either. He made a nice living
and all that, he had his home and rent houses and stuff like that.
Reb: And so what was he doing..was he ranching, really, instead of famung?
Jce P: No, they were farming...both of them were farming.
Reb: And what crops were they raising...totally cotton?
Jce P: Cotton, corn and a lot of maize, something like grain.
Reb: Grain. Was that raised to feed the livestock, primarily?
Jce P: Livestock. And about the turn of the century, about 1910 my grandfather moved to
town.
Reb: From the Cameron Ranch azea?
Jce P: And he went into business there.
Reb: And what kind of business did he go into?
Jce P: He went into the feed store business? He went into the grocery business as a partner,
with Saladiner..the same man, and I worked for Saladiner's sons for five yeazs from 1939-1945
in the grocery store, not the store with my grandfather, that was the year before.
Reb: Okay, tell me about your growing up days, I'd like to know.
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Jce P.: Well, my name is Joe C. Patranella but I was born Biaggio Patranella. My name on the
Church records is Biaggio. Father John asked me about that the other day, somebody must have
told Father John about it. I was named after my grandfather....but...I started school in 1922, I
was seven years old, and some reason or another, my friends shouted Toe and it's been that ever
since.
JP: I guess maybe when they would say, "Biaggio," they just picked up "Joe."
Reb: That could be it....it could very well be it!
Jce P: It's just been Joe every since.
Reb: Now, where did you go to school?
Jce P: I started in a country school in 1922. They called it Woodville School. It had seven
grades and about fifty students.
Reb: Now, where would that be located?
Jce P: Right in the Cameron Ranch area, right on the edge. We had, I'd say, fifty students and
forty of them were Italians.
Reb: Did those teachers have to teach those children to speak English?
Jce P: Most of them could speak some English but they caught on pretty quick, you know.
Reba. So that didn't pose a problem in the classroom, then?
Jce P: No. So I went to school there from 1922-1930. But one year, the teacher got mad at
the trustees and she failed me. Anyway, I came to high school in 19...., September 30. Leaving
a country school and coming to high school here was like going to New York City. A country
boy coming to town and I finished high school in 1935. When I fuushed high
school...Roosevelt got elected in '32 and about 1934 the Agriculture Department had its offices
in College Station. A lot of people worked on this farm program. As a high school graduate I
put in my application. For the simple reason that I was Italian, every one them got a job except
me. They never would hire me. There was this guy named Tom Retten. R..e..t..t..e..n He the
head of it and my uncle out at college, they were big buddies, so I asked Uncle Luke, I said,
"Talk to this man. I need a job." You know, three dollars a day, in those days, was a lot of
money. In those days when you snap your fingers you had to wire Luther Johnson. Luther
Johnson had to okay it. He was the congressman. I spent my last one dollar and seventy cents
to wire Luther Johnson and still Tom Retten didn't hire me.
Reb: And what age were you. at this time?
Jce P: About twenty. Anyway, so years later, I'd say twenty-five years later, I was in
Montgomery Ward buying a fire for my car, and this salesman said, "I want you to meet a friend
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of mine." He said, "Tom Retten." I said, "I know Mr. Retten. " He looked at me and I said,
"You remember me?" He said, "No, I don't." I said, "I'll tell you something than maybe you
will remember me. You never did hire me, you hired all my friends?" He said, "I don't
remember that and I'm sorry." So he took that to his grave about not hiring me, which doesn't
make too much difference now. Prejudices, you know!
Reb: Yes, yes. Were there other incidences that made you feel that you were being
discriminated against, on other than jobs?
Jce P: I couldn't get a job, but I finally went to work for a guy named Colette. Seven dollars a
week.
Reb: And what were you doing?
Jce P: During the Depression, delivering groceries. As soon as they would order them, they
would deliver them to the houses.
Reb: How did you deliver them?
Jce P: We had a little old Model-A car, I'll never forget. And we used to deliver all over
town..I worked for him for a couple two or three yeazs.
Reb: Let°s see. You were married at this time.
Jce P: No...no....this was in '37. In '39 I went to work for Saladiner. Worked for him for
five yeazs and .........let's see I was married then........this happened in '45. Came home and
ate dinner and I went back to the store and the boss said, "I sold out!" I said," Why didn't you
ask me? I've been working for you for five years," I says. He said, " Well, you couldn't get
the $10,000." He was right, I couldn't, you know. So, I went to work for the Post Office in the
latter part of '45 and that's the worst thing I ever did.
Reb: Why was that?
Joe P: Well, there were twenty-six people there and I was the only Italian. It was just
prejudices. They'd tried to give me a low down job and everything else. Then in '46 I went into
the grocery business until 'S7.
Reb: Where was your grocery store?
Jce P: On Main Street. That's where it was.
Reb: And what was it named?
Jce P: Patranella Grocery. We were there from '46 to 'S7. Then in 'S7 we were doing a
credit business. I had to shut down. People who owed me money couldn't pay and haven't paid
me yet. Then we ...........I opened up another store on the west side of town and that didn't
work. Then in 'S9 we bought adrive-in grocery which we made for three yeazs and did real
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well. Then in '65 we opened another store and did real well and sold it in '68. Then from '68
up until the present time we got into a little real estate, working taxes, bookkeeping.......
Reb: Which is what you're doing now, finally.
Joe P:We make a decent living.
Reb: And your son, Charles, works with you.
Jce P: Chazles is working. Josephine was helping us but she put us down about two years
ago. She did all right.
JP: Not because I wanted to.
Reb: No, that's right. Circumstances beyond your control. Let's back up a little bit to your
"growing-up days." I'd like to know about some of the activities that you were involved in
when you were growing up. What kind of sports did you enjoy, as a youngster? Or did you
have time for sports?
Jce P: There's two things my dad believed in, and work was both of 'em. Anyway, on
Sundays we played baseball, you know.
Reb: Baseball was the favorite sport.
Jce P: And......
JP: Bicycling ........
Jce P: Oh, yeah, we had a bicycle we'd ride. Then after we played baseball a while.........I
wasn't too good......I was "scoring". Then an old man named Sam Nuche..........he thought I
was fudgin' on scores and I quit keeping score. So I was just a spectator.
Reb: Spectator! What about working on the farms? Did you do a lot of that when you were
growing up?
Jce P: Well, they called those the "good ole days," but they can have those days. We did it all
with mules and plows and it was all done by hand.
JP: We had a dairy.
Jce P: We had a dairy and we get up around five o'clock in the morning. There were seven of
us in the family and we'd milk four or five cows apiece. Seven o'clock we'd go to the field and
five o'clock we'd milk the cows. This was in 1931 or '32....it was during the Depression, I was
in high school. We'd sell the skimmed milk and cream itself to Lily Creamery and we'd get a
check every two weeks, seven of us working and we never did get a check for fifteen
dollars....it got to fourteen, one time. Then when I got married in 1941. I had a big old straw
hat. I told Papa, "I'm going' to leave this old straw hat and I don't care what you are going to
do with it." It may still be out there.
Reb: Just put that behind you. Absolutely!
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Jce P: But I appreciated that, I didn't then, but I appreciate it now. We raised everything, but it
just what you had to do. If these kids would do that now, they'd be committing suicide.
Reb: As you get older, you can be more' philosophical, can't you?
JP: Really!
Reb: Really. What about favorite customs in your family, Mr. Patranella? Were there some
that were more important in your family than others?
Jce P: You mean, like a sport?
Reb: No, traditions. Did you always have pasta on Sunday? Was that a tradition in your family?
JP: Everyday.
Jce P: I'll tell you a good story. My dad lived to be ninety and he ate pasta everyday....I mean
everyday for forty or fifty years and he lived to be ninety. Talk about starches killing you! I
don't believe it!
Reb: No....no.
JP: He was ninety when he died.
Jce P: I don't know about traditions, but my momma used to make spaghetti. We had a
bevio(?). A tube like that with a handle on it, and we'd put the paste in that and we'd turn
it......and it had plates on it...and then she'd hang it up. We had it on a table like this with a
cloth on it to dry.
Reb: Yes, now explain that to me again?
Jce P: See, they had regular plates. They had four or five different plates: one for parchetella,
one for machatell (sp?) and when you'd twist that thing that would push that dough through
it......you see.
Reb: Yes, and so it ground the dough through and it came out.
Jce P: And then she used to make lasagna by hand or noodles, they called it.
Reb: Did you ever see her take the dough, roll it out, and then, maybe, roll it on a broom
handle, slide the broom handle out, and cut it up? Tagliarini, I think it was, they called it?
JP: I know my Mother used to take two chairs and put a broom handle across it....
Reb: But she did that for drying.
JP: Right.
Reb: This is for cutting, for wrapping the dough around it and taking it out and the dough
would be flat and would be in several folds and they would cut them with the knife and then
spread them all out on the table.
Jce P: See, nine o'clock was bedtime when we lived on the farm. Nine o'clock was bedtime,
but you°d get up at five o°clock to milk the cows.
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Reb: Very early in the morning, yes. Did you all do churn butter?
Jce P: Yeah, we sold butter. We had a butter churn that had a crock with it. And then we kind
of got smart, you know, so we ordered a butter churn from Sears and Roebuck and........,
Reb: Yes, yes, with the paddle.
Jce P: And my Mother had apound-sized wooden block to make one pound of it.
Reb: Yes, yes. I know what you're talking about.
Jce P: And I still have the strainer that we strained the milk with, it's in the barn. And I still
have the cross-cut saw, that we used to cut wood with. We had a wood stove and a wood
heater, you know? They didn't have machines to saw with, they had to saw it by hand.
Reb: Did you have a kitchen garden?
Jce P: We raised everything, garlic, onions.
Reb: Did you plait the garlic wreaths like I remember my grandfather doing?
Jce P: We had a ring hanging on a pole. It's interesting now, but God, it was a lot of work.
Reb: Yes, yes, absolutely. What about going to Church? I suppose you went pretty much to
the same Church that Josephine went to.
Jce P: Well, we went to Church every Sunday. I remember we used to go to Church in the
wagon. Pop bought a 1923 Model T Ford. I never will forget $387. That was a lot of money
then. We drove that till '34, then he bought a Plymouth. We used to go to Church in it and to
St. Luke, St. Anthony, Blessed Sacrament, all those holidays at St. Anthony's. We wouldn't
work in the fields those days.
JP: St. Joseph's Day was a special day.
Reb: Those were special days.
Jce P: We wouldn't work. Now they have forgotten all about it.
Reb: And did you all have altars at that time?
Jce P: We had one here. It was Michael's in 1966.
JP: He had open heart surgery.
Reb: I see, and that's the reason for having the altar?
JP: An altar for thanksgiving.
Jce P: An altar in those days meant something.
Reb: That's right.
Jce P: People had faith, you know.
Reb: The idea, I think, was either to ask for something or give thanks for something.
JP: In thanksgiving.
Reb: Yes, as I remember that's what we always knew it as.
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CP: It was more reverent then, then now. It's a big party now.
JP: It seems to be held now on Sundays. In the olden days, people had it on the day St.
Joseph was on.
Reb: The actual date, yes. Can you tell me about some family home remedies, that you recall
when you were growing up?
Joe P: We had a remedy that wouldn't quit. I had two sisters and two brothers...twice ayear,
mama would line us up and she'd fix five glasses of castor oil...that old thick castor oil..and
she'd set it in a little warm water so it would kind of thin out..and you took it twice a year. I
never went to the doctor till I was twelve years old. And I was nearly dead, then, you know
what I mean?
Reb: And I think that°s the reason today that many old people still don't want to go to the
hospital, because to them that's the last step, that's the last place, you know.
Jce P: I'll tell you what. My mother married when she was fifteen years old, which would be
about 1905. She married a guy named Scarmardo. My own mother. She was married to a
Scarmardo, the first time. I'm a second round. And she had two girls, and they lived in Dallas,
and a streetcar killed him. There she was with two kids in 1912 and pregnant with another one .
Reb: And where did this happen?
Jce P: in Dallas. hIe was Luke Scarmardo. Anyway, she came back to Bryan, and in those
days, a woman with two kids and pregnant with another one, you had to get married. It was a
necessity, you know. So in 1914, I believe it was, she married Pop. And then I came along and
two other brothers. So in 1943, my sister died, she was thirty-one years old and in 1945, my
baby brother was killed in service, and she never did get over it. She had a horrible life, you
know.
Reb: Any other recollections that you might want to mention?"
JP: On the weekends, we would always be planning our visits.
Reb: They visited a lot more.
Jce P: On the weekends the families would get together. My dad would play boccia. You
know what boccia is?
Reb: I do.
Jce P: We had a cousin of mine, he'd dead now, and they'd play for a nickel. You know,
they'd put a nickel on the ball? And, you know how to win? Someone would hit that ball and the
nickel would "scat out" and it was odd and we'd get to divide, you see? So, I had an uncle
named John Patranella, he said, "You boys want to make some money? I'll show you how to
do it. Take that bottom nickel and put some chewing gum on it and stick it on that ball and when
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that guy hits that ball, three nickels are going to go that way and that one nickel's going to go that
way, see?"
Reb: What about card games? Briscola?
Jce P: We say briscola....we used to play the Diablo (?). We used to try to shoot slice.
JP: We had a good experience at shooting dice.
Joe P: ........I used to like to shoot dice when I was young and we went to a
wedding.......went to her sister's wedding and had a table like this and a soldier at that end and
a soldier at this end and four civilians. I had about twenty-five dollars in my pocket. That was a
lot of money in those days. And that guy at that end (?) kept shooting dice, throwing dice, and
that guy nearly broke all of us. So, anyway, I didn't have a penny. I had a'38 Chevrolet coupe
and Charles was about two or three years old and he was standing between us and we were
coming to town and I said, "You know, I wouldn't pick up another pair of dice if they would
pay me my salary." That was in '42, whenever it was and I haven't picked up another pair of
dice.
Reb: You learned your lesson the hard way.
Jce P: That was the best twenty-five dollars I ever lost in my life.
Reb: Yes, I know.
Joe P:I wouldn't shoot dice now. Another experience I had. Josephine was in college, 1942, I
was working in the grocery store, there was a guy named Lee Lobelia and one out at the college
named Jack Randall. When he got up at six he said, "How about going with us, we're going to
run the trot line." Do you know what a trot line is?
Reb: Yes, I do.
Jce P: They had a little old two-bit boat, you know, and I couldn't swim an inch. I got in the
middle of that boat and these old fellas and this old colored guy all sitting in the middle of the
boat and I couldn't swim an inch.
Reb: Now, where were you?
Jce P: Big Brazos River.
Reb: Big Brazos River.
Jce P: Now I don't know how deep that water was, but, anyway, I started praying, you
know. I said, 'Lord, if you get me out of this mess tonight,' it was beginning to get dark, ' I'm
never going to get in another boat.' I didn't tell them that though. Well, we finally got to the
shore and I come out that boat and this is 1988 and I've never been in another boat.
Reb: Is that right! Well, you keep your promises, don't you?
Jce P: I guarantee it. -
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Reb: Boy, you really do.
Jce P:. We've had some good experiences.
Reb: Well, you remember one of the floods, no doubt. You were quite young at the time.
JP: Well, the water didn't come up this area. All I remember about the floods is in 1921. 1899,
1913, and 1921. Reason I said, my dad said they would take supplies to Steele°s Store, out
there where that lady had those cows.. Mrs.Luther.
Jce P: See, that land ........she was living there in the Bottoms. And he said he remembered
water there, all the time.
Reb: Something I wanted to ask you about this Cameron Ranch settlement. Are there any
descendants living here in Brazos County from Cameron Ranch?.
Jce P: See, Cameron Ranch was a plot of land about like this, several hundred acres, at the
turn of the century, that°s where my people come from, my set of Italians. Hers came from
Steele°s Store. So the time to came to buy a hundred acres, two hundred acres.......(?) We still
have a farm at the Cameron Ranch.
Reb: You still do! Do you know where there might be records on people who lived there in the
Cameron Ranch settlement?
Jce P: No, I imagine the guy's name was Cameron, so they called it Cameron Ranch. Maybe
you could look up some of those deeed records.
Reb: That's probably what I would need to do.
JceP: About the turn of the century, you know?
Reb: Yes.
CP: You know where its located? It's in the area of where Lakeview and the Fellowship Hall
are and that area out there.
Reb: I see. I'm going to have to look that up on a county map and see. Is there anything else
you can think of before we bring Charles into this and let him add to all this?
CP: Do you know how St. Anthony's got its name?
Reb: No, not specifically I don't.
Jce P: You can tell her that.
CP: I have to tell her.
Jce P: That's a good one! See, when they built St. Anthony's we were about 95% Italians, in
1927. So the people from Corleone wanted to name it St. Luke and the people from Poggioreale,
I mean the men, the heads, wanted to name it St. Anthony....
Reb: Why, why did they? Were they the patron saints of the cities.
CP: Of the villages.
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Jce P: Yes, of the villages. Of course, I don't know whether this was a joke or not. I've heard
this ever since I was installed. So, they decided, by golly, we'll just have a poll. We'll just do it
right, so who wins, wins, who loses, loses. They had some kind of a poll and St. Anthony got
most of the votes and St. Luke lost, see?
Reb: I see.
Joe P: Something like that. One of the guys from St. Luke said, "My God, the saints are even
against us!"
Reb: Well, tell me this, Mr. Patranella: Were there very many people from Corleone here as
there were from Poggioreale, at that time. Were the settlements about the same size?
Jce P: I imagine about the same. Because where I come from they're mostly from Corleone.
Where she came from, half from her mother's Corleone and her dad from Poggioreale. They
had most of them from that part of the country.
Reb:.Now the specific areas where the people from Poggioreale settled, as opposed to those
people from Corleone. Did they seem to be fairly well divided off into groups by location?
Jce P:.Yes.
CP: Hearne and Steele's Store the Brazos Bottoms were.
JP: And Burleson County.
Reb: Those were all Poggioreale. Okay, what about the people from Corleone?
Jce P: All right. Those people from Corleone and Poggioreale....well, if your daughter or son
wanted to get married, she's supposed to marry, you know, a Corleone. If she wanted to marry
a .Poggioreale boy, you'd almost have a fight Of course, it wore off.
Reb: Sure. Where were most of these people from Corleone? Where did they live?
Jce P: The Cameron Ranch.
Reb: On the Cameron Ranch. Right in that particular area. Well, that's out this way, isn't it?
I'm turned around. I keep hearing that there were people here from Salaparuta? But I have not
talked to anyone, yet.
Jce P: We had a few Calabrese. Well, there were too many of those, you know. But you see,
times got so tight here and those people farming could hardly make a living, a lot of them moved
to Houston, Dallas, Ft Worth and they'd take their wagons and teams and go from here to
Houston. It would take them two, three, four days to get there. When they got there some of
them got jobs, some of them did pretty good there. Some stayed here like my daddy, he
wouldn't move an inch. He didn't believe in work.
Reb: Well, do you think it was the flood that drove some of those people south, because they
just didn't feel they could cope?
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Jce P: Well, see this is part of it. Where I came from the land was poor. If the weather wasn't
right, well, then they just couldn't make a crop, see? They'd pull out.
JP: Speaking about the name of the Church? When you stop to think, the Poggiarealese wanted
St Anthony, St. Anthony was actually was from Portugal...
Jce P: Yes, he wasn't full-blooded Italian.
Reb: Okay, I didn't realize that.
Jce P: I want to tell you one more story.
Reb: Oh, yes, okay.
Jce P: This Italian guy lived close to Dallas and he was married. His dad gave him a plow,
tools, a mule, a milk cow and chickens to get started, see? So he made a crop, and he tells his
wife,°' I'm going sell everything and we're going to move to Dallas and going get me a job
running a streetcaz. So, he was a healthy young man, so he sells his mules, his plow, tools and
everything he had. He catches this train out to Dallas, when the streetcar come, he told them he
wanted a job driving a streetcaz, he told them how old he was and ..so they said, "Fill out this
paper." And he said, "No, mister, you fill it out. I'll answer the questions." So the man asked
him his name and everything. When they got to the end, the man said, "Son, you°ll have to sign
this so you won't hold us liable in case you get sick." He said," I can't write. I never went to
school a day in my life. So the man said, " We can't hire you at all, see?" So anyway, he went
back home and he was really in bad shape. He told his wife, "We're going to go to Dallas
anyway. I've got a few dollars and I'm gonna start peddling fruit." So he had this cart and he
got to peddling fruit and, the first thing you know, he bought him a truck, the first thing you
know he bought two trucks, the first thing you know, he went into the wholesale business. In
about ten yeazs he was a millionaire. You've probably heard the story. So, Life Magazine
wanted to write a history of his life.....and he said they didn't have to print that....they said,
"Why?" and after they wrote that all down. "Son," he said, °'I can°t write, I never went to school
a day in my life." He said, "My God, man, just think if you could read and write what you
could be doing!! He said, "If I could read and write I'd be driving a streetcaz!"
Reb: How about that! Could this family have been the LaBazba family that went into the
produce business there in Dallas? They were very good friends of my uncle.
Jce P: Oh, they've come a long way. Some of your people ....what°s their names?
JP: The Genaros?
Reb: You see, I went to school with a Genazo daughter.
CP: Josephine or ?
Reb: Laura.
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CP: Yeah, I remember we talked about this before.
JceP: What's the name of the one who had the patent river (?)
'JP: Joe Genazo.....Mike?
CP: Yeah, see Laura Genaro's mother was her mother's first cousin.
JP: See my grandfather and their grandfather started buying land in the bottom way back. We
had been purchasing some land out at Steele's Store, for years and practically on every deed my
grandfather had sold it to so and so.
CP: Well, I have a news clipping of his death and it has on there, "John DiPuma, wealthy
landowner,..... "Because it was rare to admit that an Italian was a wealthy anything. Back in
..1941, is that when he died?
Jce P: '40.
JP: '40, yeah. Jack died in '42.
Reb: Chazles, let's get you on the tape. So your full name is Chazles ...............
CP: Mazco Patranella.
Reb: Chazles Mazco Patranella. And do you mind telling us when you were born?
CP: November 13, 1942.
.Reb: .1942.
CP: The day, the same day as her daddy....my grandpa.
Reb: Yes, same birthdays. And you were born, no doubt, here in Bryan, right?
CP: Yes, and I was premature, cesarean and they had to.......Sister Gregory.....I remember
this.....I've been told a lot...found an incubator and it had to be trucked in. And I was one of the
first, if not the first baby, at the hospital to be in an incubator.
CP: No, it's something I have always been awaze of because we have always talked about it.
Reb: An incubator baby.
CP: Four pounds and twelve ounces.
Reb: My goodness!
CP: So I grew!
Reb: Well, that's an interesting first for this azea, isn't it! Absolutely! Tell me about your
"growing up" days. The influence that your Italian pazents and grandparents had on your life as
a youngster......... Tell me, Mr. (Joe) Patranella, what you just said.
Jce P: I went to high school from 1930 to 1935, four and half years. And I was the first Italian
on Cameron Ranch or most of Bryan to finish high school in 1935.
Reb: That's a wonderful first.
Joe P: I was the first one to work in the Post Office in 1945, which I didn't like.
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Reb: But you were the first Italian to work there.
Joe P: The first Italian...
Reb: To work in the Post Office. Were most of the people of the Polish and Czech background
who were working in these offices where you were?
Jce P: They had a few of them that had a little pull, I'd say. You know, you had to know
somebody.
Reb: But, I mean those were the other ethnic groups that you were working with?
CP: But there were a few of them, but there were mostly Anglo.
Reb: That's the way us Italians are. That's what makes us special people! And the success
they have made of their lives. Yes. You know I think a lot of young people, and I consider
persons such as you....young people still, don°t often take time enough to reflect on a lot of
these things. And I think that unless something like this makes them stop and reflect on it why
they soon forget.
SECOND INTERVIEW
Joseph C. Patranella
& Charles Marco Patranella
August 11, 1988
CP: No, it's something I have always been aware of. Because we have always talked about
the past and where I came from. I'm the oldest, I live here with them (parents) and I see them.
It's something that you appreciate and they know that I do. And the courage that my great
grandparents had to leave Sicily -well, there was nothing there for them. And here my great-
grandmother came and she was a widow, who couldn't speak English and with two children.
She couldn't turn back on the boat, she couldn't call on the phone to tell them, °'Send me this and
send me that." And then my grandfather, his daddy, was burned as a baby and went through all
that pain as a child, and pains growing up, and all that hard work those people went through.
And then my parents came along and they go through all of this hard work. And then we came
along.
I suppose it does not matter which ethnic group you are from there is always something
progranuned in you from birth, from conception that even I who have never been to the country
of Italy or Sicily I could hear music that is Italian or language that I don't know what they are
saying, sometimes, and yet I understand.
Reb: And you still feel a part of it.
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CP: Oh, yes, and its an unbroken line from there. As much as I love things Italian I love this
country, too. I guess the ironic thing is my great grandparents came to this country without
having much allegiance to any other country, to Italy, and ....this is the country they really love
and I love this country, too.
Reb: But you realize all the more, through their history what a land of opportunity it turned out
to be.
CP: Totally, totally!
Reb: Even though they had to struggle. Anything that is worthwhile you have to struggle for.
CP: That is why, I believe in letting immigrants, to this day and forever, come to this country,
to see if they can make it. Just as our country was changing when these immigrants were
coming over on the waves of the last part of the century and into the 1920s we are, right now,
beginning to see another change coming in. And in the next forty years there will be a
tremendous change. What we know today as physical makeup, people makeup, is going to be
different and it is something that I think somebody who does not share some type of ethnic
background cannot understand may let them think about it. But I do not think they can really see
that it is going to happen like that.
Reb: And in a sense don't you feel, too, that we are making a circle.
CP: Absolutely,
Reb: Because we were so totally ethnic, then we got away from being ethnic and now we are
back into being ethnics again.
CP: Sure, that's because when their parents and grandparents came over, they didn't think
about being ethnic, they may have known they were Italian, but it was like, "if we can shed some
of these old customs and become more accepted in America and get ahead, then that was fine and
so its° like, the beneficiaries, people my age, and younger and a little older, they are the one who
can look back and say, " Oh, I am from this heritage and this is this, and this, and this. And we
don°t have to work for it and hide from it or this or that.......The further you are removed from
all of that hardship the more you can appreciate and see what the others went through."
Reb: I would say that the more you are spared that hardship and hard work than you really will,
because- you may be right there while it is going on, but maybe you are fortunate enough not to
-: be a part of that.
CP: It's like daddy said earlier, and you said as you get older you can look back philosophically
and say, "Well, this was good for me then." But when you were working out there chopping
cotton in the hot sun, it wasn't very good then. You asked me what I remembered as a child?
Italian customs?
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Reb: What was the influence of your parents' Italian background on your growing up?
CP: Everything. I remember on Sundays we would go to Church, go to Mass, and then to my
grandparents - my Grandma and Grandpa Perrone lived out at Steele's Store yet, well, we would
go and visit out there and there would always be a flood cousins, aunts and uncles. And I
remember playing out there and just everybody being together.
Reb: It was just a big party.
CP: Yes, that was it, and what I remember distinctly was we were able to play outside as kids
and the adults were inside and they didn't have to worry about us fighting or screaming at one
another or getting in fights or...I°m sure we did, but there was none of this stuff where we had
to be watched constantly we knew how to mind. And I can remember when we came into town,
later in the day and we would stop off at Grandpa Patranella's, who lived just 3 or 4 blocks from
here, and on holidays we would have our Christmas dinner at one place and Christmas supper at
another place, back and forth. At the holiday time we always had ....Christmas Eve we would
open our presents here, then we would go to Mass and then we would come home and go to
sleep...then to Midnight Mass. I can't remember Christmas dinners here at home, they were
always at the grandparents, and I think its that way with the kids today.
Reb: Tell me, Charles, what excuse was used for giving you your gifts on Christmas Eve?
How was it done? Did Santa Claus fit into this anywhere?
CP: Oh, yes, Santa Claus. It was always colder here at Christmas time than it is now.
Reb: Maybe, that's because you were a child.
CP: Maybe so. When we moved into this house I was four and Janice was not yet two and
Anna Jo and Michael were born here, so we've always lived here. I'm sure Janice and I would
drive Mother crazy with, "When is Santa Claus coming? When is Santa Claus coming?"
Because Daddy would be at the store and she would be here and she would get so exasperated
with me she would say, "Listen, you'd better be quiet Santa's around delivering toys and if he
hears you or sees you you'll be the very last one." And, all of a sudden, I would hear something
on the roof. It was probably a twig or the wind blowing. I could always remember being in this
living room, because we had the tree in that corner where the window is and I could always
remember hearing those noises and I'd get out there in a hurry and my cousins, who lived at the
other end of the house. Santa Claus always came to them at five o'clock in the afternoon and it
was always eight-thirty or nine o'clock before he got here.
Reb: Now, how did he come? Were you children in another room? What took place.
CP: I have two stories on that. I suppose after daddy came in from work he somehow...I think
that he probably parked his car at the front door and left things while mother was keeping us
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busy back here. Or probably we had to go to bed and get a little rest because there was going to
be a little excitement around here. But one year my sister, Janice, who was small, and I were in
here playing around and waiting for Santa. There was a swinging door here and I was standing
here and you could see the Christmas tree and we opened the door and looked in and there was
Santa Claus....it was HIM!! I didn't say a word and she didn't either, I was in the fourth grade
and I still believed in Santa Claus, I was probably eight and she was probably four. Years
passed, I'd say twenty-five, and we were talking about Christmas stories one day and we both
related that incident. And they swear, and I believe them, that there was no one putting the toys
in there, they didn't hire anybody. And to this day, I know that Santa Claus is not Santa Claus,
but in my heart and.in my mind.....She (Janice) was about four so that was about 1955 or maybe
she was six.
JP: She was in the first grade.
CP: So it was probably 1955 or'S6. There was a closet right back around on the other side of
the pantry here and mother had gotten her one of those three foot tall dolls at that time, which she
still has, and it was in this closet in here. I was big enough then to help put the toys and things
away and one night, I was putting things in there and she, next thing I knew, was standing there
looking up and I closed the door in a hurry, but she saw the doll, and she smelled it. and when
she got it at Christmas that smell came back and it hit us. Daddy was talking about how Janice
and Anna Jo...how kids were smarter...Janice and I were the two oldest and were very close and
we were really...we grew up before T.V. came. I was in Junior High when we got it...and we
played outside and things like that so our minds were much more creative and fertile than the
other two were. we were more childlike for a longer period of time and this past Christmas,
Janice gave me a book called, The Polar ExFress. and it's about what you believe in your heart.
Dad and Mother always believed a great deal in education and, in 1952, they bought a set of
World Book Encvclo~ which we still have. These childhood things I did.
Education was stressed very much and while they were both at work at the grocery store
there was a black woman here who took care of us. And in the afternoons, in the summer when
it was so hot, we would have to eat, take a bath and Janice would have to take a nap. I would
-lay down with her and pretend I was asleep, and the, when the encyclopedias came, we could
pick one encyclopedia a day, and when we finished it, then we could pick another one, It took a
long time to get through all the volumes. I could remember devouring everything...I was 10
years old....reading and reading. I think that's where the love of reading and writing and being a
creative person came from, all that type of special education. But they stressed education so,
they wanted all four of us to have a college degree, at least one, totally free...we didn't have to
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work, all we had to do was to go to school and make the grades. Both girls graduated with
honors and I finally got through. I was never a person to study. If I was interested in
something, I was fine, I never enjoyed sitting in a classroom, and then to end up being a teacher
was ironic.
Reb: What made you decide to be a teacher?
CP: I decided to be a good teacher....I taught high school English and I thoroughly enjoyed it
for five years.
Reb: And where did you teach?
CP: Rockdale. And I taught two semesters here at night...adult education, with the Bryan
High adult education program. I thoroughly enjoyed teaching but it got to a point where all of a
sudden there were too many restrictions put on teaching....much less teaching to be done and
more and more paperwork and other things rather than teaching. I may, one day, go back to
teaching, truly, because I was a good teacher and I think the reason for that is because I failed
several courses in college and I know its great to be a gifted student and to be able to breeze
through things. But those kids who have to study or for those who don't want to I really could
see where they were coming from and I would always give them as much leeway as possible.
You know, I wasn't easy about it.
Reb: Have you done any writing?
CP: I write much of which is kept to myself.
Reb: What sort of things are these....stories or memoirs?
CP: Some are memoirs...a lot about family. There are lots of things I have written that are too
personal to publish, too personal to even let my parents read or my sisters or brothers.
Reb: Of deep inner feelings that you have put down?
CP: Right. There are things I could write, there are things I have written and will probably be
published someday, but they are too close to my heart for now.
Reb: I wondered why you had not gotten around to writing a history of your family?
CP: Well, I have things written about the family and along this line...but I'm like this, as I said
earlier about politics, if I have an opinion on something or feeling about something (889)I feel
those things very strongly and I will not compromise. And there are people who would be
involved in stories and things, even if I had made them into fiction, some people would
recognize themselves. If I like someone, I love them, but if I dislike someone, I dislike them
intensely. I can see through a lot of things and it is sometime better to leave this undone until a
later time.
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Reb: I agree with you. Now, I need your permission to place a copy of this transcript in the
Archives of the (Texas A&M) University. Would you have any objection to my doing that?
All: No.
------------------
Addendum:
CP: The Church here is synonymous with the Italian community. My personal belief is that
you go to Church to be spiritually renewed, to pray, to thank God and to refresh yourself. A lot
of the beliefs that the older Italians had which were brought down through Mother and Daddy to
me, I still firmly believe in and hold those beliefs deeper and closer than anything that is put forth
today, the basic thing of "Yes, there is a God and you pray," and that's the way it is. I believe
in helping people and praying in the way you know best...not just prayers by rote. For example,
I don't know whether you have ever heard this about St. Anthony but St. Anthony is the patron
saint of lost articles.
Reb: I know that very well.
CP: People can believe it or not, but it absolute works for me and whether it is something that's
,. in my_mind or whether it is through some cosmic force that works, you ask St. Anthony. It may
take a little time, sometimes, but it works. Also, here's something else I believe in: Holy Water
and Holy Bread and Holy Candles. When the weather is bad....stormy weather..if you toss a
little Holy Water out and little crumbs of Holy Bread and light a candle it makes all the difference
in the World. Whether it makes you feel secure, which it does, it seems that when you light the
candle the wind is not so high and the danger put somewhere else. I don't even consider them
superstitions, I just consider them part of the Italian heritage that had was filtered down to me.
And I still believe in that. Joseph (a nearby relative and neighbor) who was here earlier, because
he has been here all of the time, has seen this over the years and he, too, has to have his little
Holy Water and little container of Holy Bread And, if the weather gets bad and he's here he
runs to put it out and, if he is at home, he does also.
Mother and daddy took them yesterday to see some of the land and the cotton in the
(Brazos) Bottoms. About four, five, or six years ago, Mother had a beautiful set of crystal
rosary beads. We looked everywhere and could not find them and we have been looking for
them recently since she has been feeling better and things are better. We had looked every place
and could not find those rosary beads anywhere. And yesterday, I was here by myself,
yesterday morning, and all of a sudden I said to myself,"Where aze those rosary beads? This is
ridiculous." And the next thing I knew I was looking in that end table in the bedroom over there
and there they were! I started laughing because its, like you know, it was answered. And I also
think we take God and Jesus and the saints (and I really believe in the saints) all too seriously.
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IVot that we shouldn°t take them seriously, they were human, and they would have had to laugh
and have fun, sometime.
Reb: And to have cried.
CP: Absolutely! And I think we have to think that they were human.
Reb: That opens up the avenue of communication.
CP: Absolutely!
Reb: When you feel that the person you are praying to is human enough to understand,
otherwise there is no point. They can't help you.
CP: That's right.
JP: Tell her what happened when we came home. (Referring to the story about the rosary beads)
CP: It had been three or four days before they came home, they had been away.
So they came in and I had put them (rosary beads) on the table beside her chair and I
thought,"I'm just going to let her find them" And the beads she had there she moved. After she
had been inside a few minutes. I said, "Mother, I have a surprise for you, but you're going to
have to find it." And she said, "xou found the rosary beads!"
JP: But you know St. Anthony leads you to these things..he really does.
CP: Something else about the Church here. At the beginning of the year they started a vigil to
Mary (Blessed Virgin Mary) for atwenty-four hour period. And I volunteered to go from
eleven-thirty at night until one-thirty in the morning, because I knew it would take a man to do
that and I could. And so, I went and it was probably the most spiritual and best time, spiritually,
that I have ever had inside that Church. There was nothing to disturb you, there was no one at
the altar...I don°t mean to say that I am selfish and that you shouldn't have people at Mass, you
should, it was just a totally different feeling. I went from January to April, and then I became
leery, not for being inside the Church alone, but for things happening on the outside. One night
when I was there a strange young boy came in and he wanted to come in to pray...I'm not sure.
I let him in, but the whole time he was there, I was leery and very uneasy. And I called Janice
and told her later that I would go and pray sometime other because I felt uneasy and that if
someone was going to be there after ten-thirty at night there should be from three to four people
present. Even though I am a big man, and parked in the front, side or back lots of the Church
there are just too many
places where people could do you harm.
Reb: That's right and size has nothing to do with it.
CP: It's just the times.
Reb: Thank you all, again, so much.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Annie Mae Canatella (AC) with comments by Charles Marco Patranella
(CP), Josephine (JP) and Joseph Patranella (Jce P).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: August 12, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Where and when were you born, Mrs. Canatella?
AC: I was born August 15, 1906, and that's a holiday..the Feast of the Assumption. I was a
Catalina and I married a Canatella.
Reb: What were your parents' names?
AC: Pete Catalina and Lena. Do you want the maiden name.
Reb: Your mother's maiden name.
AC: Lena Lazarone.
Reb: And can you tell me where they were born?
AC: Sicily, Italy. My mother was seventeen when she came from Italy.
Reb: So your mother and father were not married when they came? They married after they
came to the States?
AC: And mother was seventeen.
Reb: Where did they enter the United States? Did they come in through New Orleans?
AC: I think they entered through Louisiana. A lot of people came in through there.
Reb: About what year would that have been?
AC: I don't know.
Reb: Do you remember your father's birthday? Or your mother's birthday?
AC: I can't remember.
Reb: How old did you say you father was when he came?
AC: Well, he was young, and he was in the army. In fact, he and my father-in-law happened
to be in the army together.
Reb: Do you mean in the Italian Army?
AC: Yes, a long time ago, when they were single.
Reb: When they were in New Orleans or Louisiana, were they working in the sugar cane
fields?
AC: My father was working at some farm.
Reb: Do you have any idea when they left there and came to the Brazos Valley?
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AC: When the flood took our home their passports and all their papers were in a trunk?
Reb: Which flood was that?
AC: 1913. My mother was pregnant..but here you can read it all in here. (Showing a news
article).
Reb: Tell me as much as you can remember about your mother and father when they came to
the States and about their living in Steele's Store.
AC: They farmed at Steele's Store. My daddy bought forty acres of land there.
Reb: Did they marry at St. Joseph°s Church?
AC: Well, now, if I°m eighty-two.
Reb: That's been a long time ago, I know.
AC: They had church that burned. Was it St Anthony's Church?
Reb: That was St. Anthony's Church. That would have been after they came. They probably
had their marriage registered with a priest at St. Joseph's. Don't you think? To go that far back.
So when they married, they set up housekeeping right there in Steele's Store and stayed there?
AC: Stayed there and started farming.
Reb: And when he started farming, did he own his farm himself or was he farnung for
somebody else.
AC: Forty acres. He owned it himself. We lived on that land, and that's when the flood took
our house. We were just left with the ground, that's all.
Reb: What did he farm, mostly cotton?
AC: Cotton and corn.
Reb: I suppose you had a kitchen garden?
AC: Oh, yes, we always had a garden. When we got married my daddy raised a garden with
tomatoes, eggplants, greens, everything.
Reb: I suppose anything that you could cook and eat. Did you have brothers and sisters?
AC: Ihad four brothers..well, Ihad five..one died when he was a baby..no sisters. and now
I don't have any brothers and sisters, no husband and no sons.
Reb: How many children did you have?
AC: Ihad two sons.
Reb: Where are your parents buried, are they buried in the old Bryan Cemetery in the Catholic
section?
AC: They're both buried in Bryan.
Reb: Can you remember any special games that you played when you were growing up? What
did you do to occupy your time?
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AC: I played baseball when I went to school. I could run like a rabbit. My husband used to
call me "tomboy" 'cause I was raised between four brothers and I was just as tough as they
were.
Reb: Well, I'll tell you, the Italian girls must have had a terrific team at that time. Everyone
.: Ibe talked to was on the baseball team.
AC: At the time, when the bell would ring it would make me mad because I wanted to make
some more home runs.
Reb: Do you think they did that on purpose.
AC: I think they did. My husband would say, "You ought to have been a boy!"
Reb: Did you children have to work in the fields, too, to help your parents?
AC: My brothers had to work in the fields.
Reb: And, what about you girls..did you have to work in the fields?
AC: I was the only girl, but my mother said the baby was born in the floods. I didn't work in
-the fields. That's when I learned to make bread, spaghetti, cornbread, biscuit, everything.
Reb: How old were you when you first started learning to cook like that?
AC: About twelve. And I could iron shirts beautifully. I would wash on Monday, make
bread and iron on Tuesday, and we put the iron on top of the stove (to heat) not with electricity.
And then Wednesday, Thursday and Friday I went to school. I went to the eighth grade and I
was a smart little girl.
Reb: Where did you go to school?
AC: At Steele°s Store. We walked every step.
Reb: Can you tell me about the school? What did it look like?
.; AC: Well, the school burned down...it was plain, not a big school and it was small.
Reb: How many rooms did it have?
AC: I can't remember.
Reb: I wondered if you had many classes in one room.
AC: We had only one teacher. We were all together.
Reb: About what size class do you remember attending? About how many students were there
in the classes?
AC: A pretty good bunch.
Reb: And were they mostly Italian?
AC: Just divided.
Reb: Did language seem to be a problem? Did the Italian children seem to learn the English ,.
language?
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AC: Yes, they learned it pretty well. The only thing, when we'd have a spelling match in our
class, they would say, "This is my word..this is yours." The third and fourth ...they would
study just one word. But then the teacher would start from this way instead of that and they
didn't know anything. I would study the whole deal, so anyone she'd call I could spell it. We
used to have spelling matches. I used to tell them, "You all better study them all because you
don't know if they are going to give you the one you've studied." There were twelve in my
class, and then six passed and six were left behind.
Reb: Well, things didn't change too much from the time you went to school and I went to
school because there were thirty-two in my class. There were sixteen boys and sixteen girls.
Tell me, what were some of your favorite pastimes besides baseball? Did you really enjoy the
cooking or was it just something you had to do?
AC: Well, I had to do it, but I enjoyed it. I don't enjoy it now, because I don't have anybody
to cook for.
Reb: Well, that's half the pleasure, isn°t it?
AC: I love to cook and I love to make bread, as old as I am. A lot of them say, "Oh, I hate to
cook," but not me!
Reb: What is you most favorite food to cook?
AC: Homemade bread.
Reb: Light bread or French bread?
AC: Well, it would be rolls...right now I'm making rolls or would make loaves. I make them
round. Lots of them (settlers) had one of those (ovens) outside that you put your bread in (to
bake).
Reb: How did you bake your bread?
AC: We had a wood stove.
Reb: Wasn°t that hard to get your temperature just right when you were baking?
AC: No..we just knew..we'd just guess at it. In fact, when we used to bake a cake, we
didn't have a recipe. We'd just put the sugar, egg, Crisco, flour and make the best cake.
Reb: How could you tell when the oven was hot enough to put the cake in.
AC: Oh, you could tell! Just put your hand in there. I've got a recipe for a cake that you put
in a cold oven and set it to 350oF. They call it Goofy Pound Cake. It's a good recipe. I bake it
all of the time. You put everything in a bowl, eggs, sugar, flour, baking powder. You don't
have to mix..just do each thing separately...eggs..and then you mix it for ten minutes, put it in a
cold oven and set it to 350 degrees and cook it an hour. I got it from the Bryan paper.
CP: She makes very good bread.
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JceP: Tell her about the oven outside.
AC: We didn't have that.
Reb: What did that look like?
AC: A lot o them had them made out of bricks, round, and wood inside. Then you cleared it
out and put your bread inside. And you could put nearly ten loves in there.
Reb: What kind of door did it have?
AC: A tin door.
Reb: Well, that's something, really. For how long did you use that oven? Then you didn't
have gas or electricity to cook by.
AC: In those days we didn't have washboards (machines?), no water in the house, no
bathroom in the house, everything was outside. I washed many clothes with the rubbing board.
Reb: Did you use a clothesline or did you put the clothes on the fence?
AC: No....clothesline.
Reb: Clotheslines with those sticks that you'd push the line up on? I'd like to tell you how
many times I ran into one of those and did a flip in the air when were playing. Somebody would
forget to put the stick up.
AC: My mother-in-law used to make homemade soap with lye. Man, we'd boil those sheets
and they would sparkle on those lines?
Reb: Do you remember some home remedies that your mother would use....for a cut yourself,
or a stomach ache?
AC: One thing, well, see this bum I have...well, I got it into my mind to take a big dose of
castor oil. That was our medicine in them days. Give us castor oil, kill a hen, make the soup
and we were well.
Reb: Chicken soup and castor oil.
AC: Turpentine. Like we had a cough, we'd take hot ashes and roll it in a rag and put
turpentine in them ashes and then tie it around your neck. We got a lot of home remedies.
Reb: Was that for a sore throat?
AC: Yes.
Reb: Tell me some more because I am very interested in the different types of home remedies.
AC: Well, I remember that sometimes we'd put a drop of turpentine and sugar and take that. It
would work a lot of times for coughing. But now they wouldn't dare to do that. I told this
nurse..at the drugstore..I had it in mind to take some castor oil with this acid. She said, "Oh,
no! you might start bleeding!" Because they found acid and the doctor told me if you don't have
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acid you can't digest your food But a lot of people have more than others. And I am one of
them.
Reb: What about eazaches? What would you do for them?
AC: Warm a little olive oil and drop it in there. You might know that.
Reb: I know that. What about for just aching muscles and back? Did you fix mustard plasters?
AC: Yes, either that or we used some kind of salve, Vick's salve and rubbed it.
Reb: So Vick's salve has been azound for a long time.
AC: Oh, yes, and Mentholatum, too. If you can't breathe, or something, you get a little bit of
Mentholatum, put it in a spoon, and put a match under it and make it hot until it smokes and
inhale it. I do that many times right today.
Reb: Are there any other remedies you can think of?
AC: That's about all of it right now.
Reb: Did they say why they came over here to the United States? Did they feel that they could
do better or have a better life if they came here?
AC: Well, I guess that they wanted a change and they came to see if they could do better or
not.
Reb: Do you remember them talking to you very much about the "old country" and how they
used to live?
AC: Sometimes we'd get together and talk.
Reb: Do you remember some stories in particulaz?
AC: Well, my daddy used to tell stories, and he used to read from a book...A Thousand and
One Ni tc. He would read, no matter how much noise they were making in that house. And
my mother would tell him, "How can you read with all these kids and noise in this house?"
He'd say, "The more noise, the better I can read."
Reb: When did he learn to speak English? Did he just pick it up after he came here?
AC: He picked it up after he got here and he could speak pretty good English. But my father-
in-law never did learn.
Reb: Well, had your father or mother ever gone to school when they were in Italy, do you
know?
AC: They never did go to school. My daddy learned the hard way.
Reb: After they got here?
AC: And if he hadn't been worried with my mother being sick he probably could have taught
me to read and write Italian.
Reb: Then did you ever speak the Italian language.
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AC: Oh, yes! I could speak the Italian language better than English. I could speak Italian
when I was a little girl.
Reb: Do you still speak Italian?
AC: Sure. My husband could, too. I didn't lose it, I don't want to lose that. Well, if I want to
tell a secret and Chazles doesn't understand it, then he can't know what I'm saying. But he
understood the other day when I told him about the tracks. (Speaking to Charles Patranella) Did
you tell that?
CP: Why don't you tell her that one.
AC: In English or Italian. (Speaking to Reb) You understand Italian?
Reb: Mostly. Try me out in Italian. If I don't understand it, I'll tell you.
AC: I'll say it in English. These two men, they came from Italy, and like my daddy, none of
them knew how to talk, And these two men were going to catch a train, to go somewhere. One
of them told the other one, "Go in there and ask the man what time the train leaves..the "choo-
choo" train leaves." And the man did and he said, "Eleven o'clock." And he went back and
said, Levare tracce! They took the tracks out!). Sounded like "eleven o'clock."
Reb: That's cute! Mrs. Canatella, tell me how you met your husband.
AC: Oh, my husband! It was "love at first sight."
Reb: And where did you meet?
AC: You know my mother was sick all the time. She had that baby in the flood People
didn't know my daddy had a daughter 'cause I wouldn't leave my mama. My mama would say,
"Go to town with your brother and daddy and buy what you want. So, I would write down the
powder and the rouge and they'd bring it. And I never did go anywhere. So one day...one
:Sunday..some of my friends got married and my mother was feeling better, so daddy said, "You
oughts go to that wedding. Let's go." We had the T-Model Ford at that time and my brother
was driving. So we went there and we were sitting in the hall, and there was dancing. So I did
dance a couple of times with my daddy. He was a good waltzer, and this husband that I married,
they were all there and his sister and I were sitting together. I hadn't met him so I didn't know
who he was. So when they went home and he asked his sister, "Who was that girl sitting close
to you at the wedding?" She said, "I don't know her, but she said her name was Annie Mae
Catalina. He said, "I'm gonna find that gal." It was love at first sight. He didn't know me and I
didn°t know him .
Reb: How old were you when this happened:
AC: I was twenty and was going to be twenty-one in August and my husband was going to be
twenty-two in November. We were two young chicks. Anyway, then my husband was telling
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them, ..a hot-shot, he was smart, he told his brother, "I tell you what we'll do to see that girl
again." Because my brother-in-law wanted to see me, too! They asked where we lived, they
found us in the Bottoms where we lived. They drove to the other end of the turn road and they
took the water out of the car. Then they turned around and came back and they stopped at our
house so they had been told where my daddy lived. So they said, "Mr. Catalina, you got any
water?" My daddy said, "Hey, what do you all need?" See, they knew each other. My daddy
said, °'Hey, I was in the army with your daddy.°'
Reb: So they had planned this?
AC: They had planned it, so they said, "You have any water? We're out of water." But they
took the water out themselves. Hot-shot did that. He planned that to help his brother. So he got
over there and said, "Yeah, we've got plenty of water." So he hollered at me to bring the bucket.
My mother always taught me..well, it was a Sunday morning, I had to be dressed. I don't know
how I looked, I couldn't tell you. So, my daddy said, "Bring the bucket." My name in Italian is
Mirana. So here I came with the bucket and they took another look. I guess they wanted to see
if I was bow-legged, if I couldn't walk or what.
Reb: He was checking you out.
AC: He took another look. If it was love at first sight, it was there, it was love at first sight at
the house. So, okay, so they left. After about a month, not even that long...two weeks, here he
came with his daddy. In those days they used to send for a girl (from Italy).I imagine that you
know that.
Reb: Yes.
AC: They just didn't run around getting engaged themselves. All right. So, they came in and
I said to myself, "That's that same guy. I wonder what he wants." I loved my mama and I
didn't want to leave my mama. I thought, "What do they want?" So they talked outside, my
father-in-law and all of them and then they left. So after they left my daddy said, "See that man,
who was here the other day and today? He wants to marry you." I said, "I don't know that
man, who is he?" He said, "I know they're a good family because I went into the army with the
daddy." I said, "Yeah, but I don't know him that welt. But if you say he's a good man, I guess
he's a good man. You wouldn't do me like that if you wouldn't know the family. °' He said, "I
know the family.°' So they left and we talked about two weeks. In two weeks time...well, you
ought to know that, you probably went through it. So then it was time for them to come and my
daddy called me in my bedroom and said, "Now," they were funny in those days!....."Don't
you let me tell this guy that you'll marry him and let me tell him "yes" and then you turn around
and tell me you don°t want him!" They didn°t want to do that. I said, °'Well, if you say it's a
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good family, I'll take a chance and marry him." And, man, he made me the best husband. We
weren't rich but we sure got by just going dancing and having fun, but we had bad luck from
then on. When I had the first baby, almost died when he was born. When he was twenty-five
he was messing with a gun and got shot, and that's how I lost my little son...going deer hunting.
the baby was three and a half when he died from meningitis and we were quarantined for forty
days. Nothing but bad luck! ! Then my mama didn't live six months after we got married and
she died, that was the first funeral that came up. That's all I can talk about.
Reb: What was the date of your marriage?
AC: The date of my marriage was January 22, 1927. We lived together thirty-eight years and
he grieved over that son we lost the way we did and he accumulated heart trouble and he died
with a heart attack.
Reb: A sad year. How old was he when he died?
AC: Fifty-eight.
Reb: See, my father was fifty-seven when he died.
AC: He was two years older than me. and he was on a cultivator, not a tractor with the air-
conditioning or parasol on top...but mules. Then I wasn't worrying about whether I knew how
to cook. I used to cook for seven when I was at home, then when I would cook for seven it was
too much, so I had to learn all over again. And we had a stove with an oven and we had
kerosene stove. From the wood stove it was the kerosene stove. But we had a happy life but a
lot of sad, sad, times.
Reb: Tell me, were you and your husband pretty active in the church during your married life?
AC: Ah, yes.
Reb: Was this at St. Anthony's Church?
AG St. Anthony's Church. He (motioning to Joe Patranella) can tell you we had to go to the
six o'clock Mass. I used to say, "Why can't we go later?" He would say, "No, I like to go..he
wanted to see his friends, you know, because they all would go to six o'clock Mass.
Reb: And I guess you worked quite a bit in the church when you were...
AC: Oh, yes. I belonged to the Altar Society. I imagine you might be in the Altar Society,
too, aren't you?
Reb: Yes, I am
AC: Then we used to make the spaghetti. We used to start with the sauce. Now, they make it
at the Center. Do you remember that? (Asking Josephine Patranella). We used to start with six
pots. Each one would make a pot. I used to make my own pot.
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Reb: You mean six of those large pots were all that you would make? I mean, for each person
or total?
AC: No, the total. Now we make twenty-five pots. And my husband would help me fry the
meatballs, because he was a cook. He used to love to cook. Of course, he used to love to eat.
He could cook the best barbecue.
Reb: Yes, most of the husbands of the wives I have interviewed do like to cook.
AC: When we had company, which we always did, he cooked the barbecue and I'd make
potato salad or make a nice or cake. I didn't have to cook much, but he made the main course -
barbecue. As for the spaghetti dinner -you see, if it wouldn't be for those men they couldn°t
handle it.
CP: I love to cook.
AC: I love to cook, but I don't have anyone to cook for. I got Johnnie and Susie...their
mother and daddy, my brother...the baby brother, born during the flood...he and his wife died
three months apart.
JoeP: You've got somebody living with you.
JP: Yes, tell her who's living with you.
Reb: Who is living with you?
AC: Oh! my cat.
Reb: You have a pet cat?
AC: That cat is my company. You've got to come see my cat. When he sees a stranger, he's
going to hide.
Reb: Oh, really?
AC: All he knows is me.
Reb: How long have you had him?
AC: Two years. He was three weeks old when I got him, and his name is Tony, but we
nicknamed him Cuckoo. And when he's hungry and he's out there and I say, "Cuckie, you
wanta come eat?" He turns around and wiggles his tail and leaves. "No, I'm not hungry. I ain°t
coming to eat!" But you let him get hungry and he'll come to the door, he can't meow, he don't
ever open lus mouth, but he just sits there and I ask, "What do you want? Do you want
something to eat?'° He puts his little paws on the door and runs to his food. He's there day and
night. That°s my company!
Reb: Mrs. Canatella, did your husband farm the whole time during his life?
AC: All he did was to fame.
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Reb: Did he belong to any of the societies...any of the Catholic Societies..while you all were
married? Such as the Agricultural Benevolent Society, which, I believe was supposed to have
helped the Italian people.
AC: He always helped, now, with something to cook, or ready to do something.
Reb: Did you all get along well with your neighbors....that is, those who were not Italian?
Were there any problems?
AC: Never did.
Reb: What did you do for recreation?
AC: When we'd heaz there was a good band we'd go dancing.
Reb: That was probably your most favorite social activity.
AC: Yes, and our son learned to dance when he was eighteen and we'd go. He would take
us. And his daddy would say, "Well, I hate to drive." We'd go from the Bottoms to Bryan to
the picture show, when John Wayne was playing...we didn't have T.V. Then my son would
say, "You all come on, I'll take you." I'd say, "Well, maybe you've got a date?" He'd say,
"I'll find somebody over there to dance with over there." And he would dance with those little
old folks. My, they used to love to dance with him. He'd dance with all of them, make them
have a good time.
Reb: When did you get your first car?
AC: Oh, we got a T-Model Ford and then you had the geaz shift...you know, down on the
floor? I said, "I don't know, but I still want to learn..I'm not going to stay in the house...I'm
going to buy groceries whenever I want." And he had a great big caz. I used to watch him. He
wouldn't let me drive it because I was going to have a wreck. We got our first caz when we
married in 1927. And one day he was flying by the house in a cultivator and I said, "I'm going
to get in that caz and go to my mother's (house). You know, it was in a field, I didn°t have to go
on the highway. I went in the garage, I opened the door, and he stopped his mule and he was
watching. He said, "What's that gal gonna do? she's gonna drive that car and gonna get hurt!
Where's she going?" I opened the garage door, I got in that car, I backed it out. 'Course I had
been watching him back it out. and he said, "Look at her!" I stopped it, I had to close the
garage, then I had to go open the gate in the field, because they had cows in the field, took it out
and went through the gate. He said, "That woman's going to knock the gate down, she°s going
to get hurt! Who told her to go and do that? I oughts kept those keys with me." But anyway, I
went to his mother and he was watching, I was sure raising the dust in that turn road with that
caz! But, I got to my mother-in-law's and she didn't see the car and she said, "Oh, you walked
over here, this faz?" I said, "No, mama. I came in the caz." "In the caz? You weren't scared?"
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"No." And my husband was making the Sign of the Cross, thinking "If she gets home alive
she's gonna be lucky."
Reb: And after that day, things were not the same, were they?
AC: When I came home, I opened the gate, closed the gate, put the car in the garage. And he
thought, "She's gonna go in the other end of that garage, and she's gonna come out the other
end." No, I didn't, I put it in there, I closed the doors, went back in the house and went in and
cooked supper for him. He came and said, "Boy, you thought you were doing something. I
watched every move you made. Now, that you know how to drive that caz, go buy my Prince
Albert at the store.°' Strummich (sp?) You remember Strummich? (TallQng to the Patranellas). At
Smetana? "Now, you gotta go buy my tobacco." "Well, I can't drive on the highway.°° I said.
"Well, if you went over there and back and did what you did, you can go there." Then I had to
go buy his tobacco. He was glad that I had learned. The Strummich store wasn't too far from
where we lived. They had two stores.
Reb: I suppose that when you were growing up there your folks bought things at Steele's
Store, didn't they? At the grocery store?
AC: Yes, but then my mama died after we were marred about six months..and so my daddy
was a widower for 20 years. We used to go to his house and cook spaghetti with him and he
used to come to our house because he could drive. But I had a good married life. It just didn't
last long. Just heartaches, had to lose both.....I could have been agreat-grandmother, right
now. My oldest son would be 60 and my baby 57. I have pictures of them.
Reb: Tell me, Mrs. Canatella, what do you remember about the flood, the big flood.
AC: I remember everything. I got in that boat and saw all of those dead hogs and cows and
such. Most of the town was crying because their houses were gone. My mama had a shoe box
full of gold from Italy and she used to tell me, °'These are yours, You°re the only girl. These are
yours." Where they went...Burleson County. Then after the flood went down, my daddy and
my two uncles, they went looking and my daddy found his vest hanging on a tree and his watch
was still in his pocket. And the trunks, they found them all opened up...my mother had
bedspreads from Italy, had a good trousseau in the trunk. They had stolen everything out of the
trunk. And the earrings, rings and bracelets, my mama had pierced ears and we put one pair on
and that°s what I had on when they took the rest of them. She used to show me that gold, all the
time.
Reb: How many days did the water remain high?
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AC: We stayed two nights up there before it went down and we could get into the boat. Then
in September we had another one. Do you remember, Mr. Joe? It didn't get up high, but it got
in the house.
Reb: Was that in 1921?
AC: Yes.
Reb: Do you remember some of the old Italian customs that your folks brought over from
Sicily, other than St. Joseph's Day and the St. Joseph's Day Altar?
AC: We used to go to the St. Joseph's Table, in fact, one year, well, it hasn't been too long
ago, I was a saint to one of them. You know, they used to get the "grown-ups?" Now, they
..don't make as many anymore. All the neighbors I know are all dead now. I do remember going
to church at St. Anthony's where they had a real feast, not like now. They had the band and ice
cream for us kids. We used to ride the T-Model Ford when we had to come to Bryan. We lived
way in the Bottoms and we never did miss.
Reb: Then, you were not in the Cameron Ranch area, were you?
AC: Some of my husband's kinfolks were in Cameron, we were in Smetana. (Speaking to
the Patranellas) You remember the little house Jce Reggum built purposely for us?
CP: I would like to know how Smetana got its name. It had to be from some Slavic settlers.
Because Smetana is a famous Czech composer.
AC: Yes.
CP: Yes, and I can't recall, at the moment, the names of some of his compositions, but he's
very famous, and I would think that someone from the Czech or Slavic communities must have
settled there years before. It's the same spelling and everything..I was going to mention
something about the feast days. We used to celebrate the feast of Corpus Christi here. I don't
know whether you did in Dickinson.
Reb: I do remember it vaguely.
CP: The children would gather flowers...the petals of the flowers. and we would have a big
procession. I remember this and I know they (indicating his parents and aunt) do when they
..were young. and we would walk up the main altar of St. Joseph's, at St. Anthony's,...the main
aisle there. The aisle would be covered with the flower petals, and they would walk out to the
front of the church, onto the sidewalk, and onto the street.... Parker and 29th, and still had
flower petals. Father Bravi was leading everything, you know. And there was the incense for
benediction. And it was always on a weekday, even if it fell on Sunday.
Reb: Did this procession precede a Mass?
CP: Yes, before the Mass began.
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Reb: Then would there be any sort of a commemoration after the Mass?
CP: I remember the girls were always the "children of Mary," and they would weaz the little
blue dresses. It was really something, but I guess that part died out by say 1960. It was no
longer done.
Reb: There is something we didn't talk about yesterday and that would be the First
Communion customs. Were there any particulaz customs followed here for First Communion
when you were small?
JP: Well, like I said yesterday, we had to learn the catechism. Father Bravi used to come out
one day a week when it was the yeaz for First Holy Communion and we had a little catechism.
and we had it in the school building...the two-story school building, and after that time, after we
received First Holy Communion. I think it was a yeaz later that we were confirmed. We were
confirmed in the same yeaz, same class, but didn't know each other. But I can remember that tall
boy at the back of the line.
CP: Also, I am sure you had your church in Dickinson, the railings where you would go
kneel for Communion on Sundays? I really miss that in the church, we had a beautiful railing. I
want to say this about Father Bravi, Basil Bravi, and Peter Villani. They were really wonderful,
wonderful men. I mean, they really, really cared about the people of the Parish and they would
visit the people of the Parish and go into their homes.
AC: To bless their homes.
CP: Really, and there was a lazge number of Italian people...it was a big Parish. but they
made the time to do that and it was really good.
AC: When I got confirmed I was old enough to get married because my daddy was sick with
this burring like I have...I took after him, I guess. and the Bishop would come once every four
years.
JP: That°s right! He came from Galveston.
AC: My daddy happened to be in the hospital in Louisiana..New Orleans, when he came and
my mama couldn't take us. So we didn't get confirmed. then..another four yers..so that was
eight years...and if I was eight..sure..I was sixteen. I have a picture with my brothers, then all
three of my brothers, except Tony, he was the baby then. He got confirmed later. There was
four of us confirmed.
Reb: Was the white dress traditional?
AC: Oh, I had a white dress and white shoes. I've got a picture this big of all the group and
Father Bravi, who married us.
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Reb: Was it customary with the Italians here to take the name of the godparent..as part of her
name?
AC: ~ Yes.
JP: Some did.
AC: They were responsible for your religious upbringing.
CP: You were asking about men's clubs in the Church. There was a Holy Name Society here
for men. I think it must have disbanded but, as a child, my Grandpa Patranella enrolled me as a
member in the Holy Name Society and we would have Mass and Communion in a body at 7:30
Mass on Sundays...I think the first Sunday of the month. And I would go, he would pick me up
..and I would go to Church with him, and then, afterwards, all the men would go upstairs in the
old Parish Hall and have coffee and doughnuts. And you had a little card with your name on it.
Reb: Do you recall...Josephine, anything about this Agricultural Benevolent Society...the
Society of a long time ago that was here to help them find housing and jobs. Do you recall your
family talking about those societies? Do you, Mrs. Canatella?
AC:: , :They had a hard time fording jobs in those days.
JP: Mr. (Joe) Saladina was helpful to some of those people.
CP:. _ ..:.Wasn't there some Frenchman here that helped? Bonneville was his name.
JP: He took a liking to the Italian people. He had a clothing store and he would sell clothes
on credit until the following year when they could gather their crops and all. I remember him,
but he's been dead about thirty-five years. This Frenchmen, he was really nice to those people.
Reb: 1'n some of the early history that I have read about this area the Italian Consul Nicolini
came here from Galveston a long time ago. Do you recall this?
CP: Probably when he came he found the Italians working in a situation that was one step
above slavery. And they worked as tenant farmers for the wealthy landowners. Then is when
the Benevolent Society was assist the farmers with buying land. The Anglo landowners didn't
really expect the landowners to be able to pay back for the land and that it would revert back to
the seller. I did get a lot of consolation out of the fact that most of the farmers did make a go of it
,- and were able to retain their land
AC: ~ My daddy bought forty acres of land. He had to buy because in those days owners would
not hire people to work the farms like they do today.
Reb: I believe that my grandmother's parents were probably tenant farmers in the Bottoms.
You would think that there would be a listing somewhere in the county records naming the tenant
farmers who worked on the various farms.
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CP: I am sure that back then there was no listing just as in the 'SOs there no listing for the
migrant workers. My Grandfather Del'uma didn't have much of anything when they first came,
but through hard work and tenacity and the sheer will to survive, they did. Of course, you know
that there were Italians in Navasota and in Hearne and still are.
Reb: Yes, I do. Mrs. Canatella, can you tell me something about the lives of your pazents after
they came here.
CP: Most would probably be in the news clipping.
CP: I think the three of them, my father and mother and Mrs. Canatella, should tell you about
wedding customs. (Talking to Mr. Joe Patranella) When you used to go to a wedding ...what
was it like?
JceP: First of all, weddings were usually held on Saturday mornings with a dance that night
and a celebration all day Sunday. We would cook spaghetti and there would be large pans of
roasted peanuts and candy mixed together. When Sunday night came the bride and groom were
usually worn out.
CP: In other words the bride and groom were married on Saturday morning but didn't leave for
their honeymoon until Sunday. But they did spend Saturday night together?
JceP: No way! Oh! and they always had a case of beer. I'll never forget Jack Wheelock, he
was out here a few yeazs ago. He was married on a Saturday, I was just a kid and was in the
bazber shop getting a haircut, and he came in and got a haircut and a shave. Then he went home
to have supper and danced until twelve or one o'clock.
CP: Then they were married on Saturday night and that night the bride would still go back to
the home of her pazents and then when they left on Sunday they would go to their own home or
wherever?
JceP: Yes, they (pazents) were really strict.
Reb: Did the people do anything to the bride and groom's house like they used to do in some
places? I believe they called it a "shivaree." It was really serenading the couple but often
accompanied by loud banging of pots and pans, anything to disturb the couple.
JP: Sometimes they would take the bride's nightgown and stitch it across the waist
AC: When we were mazried it was on a Saturday, too. Mr. Cazl Scazmazdo cooked the meat all
night. It rained and it was in January and was freezing. We didn°t go to a motel or anything like
that.
Reb: So you had a house to go to?
AC: Yes.
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Reb: It is my understanding that the bride was responsibile for obtaining a house for the
couple.
AC: No,~the man was responsible for getting the house. And a long time ago the man would
buy the wedding dress and all and now it is up to the bride's mother to do that.
JoeP: Both parents would split the expenses for the wedding.
CP: Wasn't it the custom, too, that if there were more than one daughter in the house that the
oldest had to be married first? Mother, what about your sisters?
JP: That is what happened in our family. My oldest sister was engaged but not married and my
sister, Rena, had a proposal. She could not accept that proposal (at least Mother and Daddy
wouldn't let her) until my older sister got married. That was Will Scarmardo -Rosalie
Scarmardo's husband.
CP: So they didn't marry.
JP: When I was proposed to I kind of hated to get ahead of my sister but she said, "No, you go
on." I said, "Do you feel all right about it?" She said, "Yes." So we got married.
CP: I wonder what the reasoning for that was?
Reb: I don't know, but I have always heard that.
CP: Unless maybe they thought that daughter would not be as accepted.
_ JP: No.
JceP: -You know they usually had weddings during the fall of the year, after the gathering of
the crops, because most people just didn't have the money even for an inexpensive wedding.
And they would say, "After I gather my crops, you can propose to this girl and you can marry in
October." And they couldn't marry over one or two (children) a year because it would cost so
much. And I have seen the time when people couldn't pay that three dollars a year which is what
the Church would charge.
Reb: Is there any reason why they couldn't have a wedding on Sunday?
JceP: No, they could have a wedding on Sunday.
Reb: Is it customary not to have a funeral on Sunday?
JP: At one time.
-JceP: There was once a custom where you couldn't say Mass in the evenings, only in the
mornings.
AC: And you used to have to wait three to four hours after eating to go to Communion.
CP: Have you asked Mrs. Canatella how her husband proposed to her?
Reb: Yes.
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AC: Another thing: in those days do you think that my husband could take me to a show? Why
my reputation would have been ruined. They wouldn't let me go unless one of my brothers went
also. My mother wouldn°t' let me ride with my mother-in-law and my father-in-law and my
husband (to be) in their car to go to Church to get married with my wedding dress on. They
were very strict.
Reb: Well, times have certainly changed.
AC: I'll say they have. And when we were engaged and he saw his friends, the Fachorns, they
were all friends then, in fact, he was a compadre (Confu~nation Godfather) to Louis Fachorn.
They would exchange gifts and he told them about his engagement to a Catalina girl and they
said, "Oh, we know those Catalina girls. My uncle had a girl he would go with to a dance, she
must be Pete Catalina's daughter." He said, "No, Pete doesn't have a daughter, we haven°t seen
her. Where, does he keep her?" ('This showed how strict parents were in not letting their
daughters go out to public affairs except with the family).
CP: Did your mother make your wedding dress?
AC: No, we bought it.
Reb: Can either of you two ladies tell me about your wedding trousseaus?
AC: Yes, we certainly did. As a matter of fact, I still have things which I have not yet put on
my bed that are still in my trunk. I remember that my mother and Mrs. Angonia used to get
together when my daddy used to the read the book and tell the stories and crochet. Every pair of
pillowcases I had was with my mother's homemade lace on them, even the bedspreads and bed
sheets. I still have some on my icebox with great big ducks, with lace this wide, that she made
with her dear little hands and look how long she has been dead.
Reb: And you, Josephine, what did you have in your "hope chest?'°
JP: We had underclothes, towels, sheets and pillowcases.
CP: She still has her cedar chest.
Reb: And these were bought a little at a time?
JP: Right. I never learned to crochet or embroider at all.
Reb: Was there anything that was expected of the bridegroom to give to the bride when he
married?
AC: The groom had to buy the wedding dress and the veils.
Reb: Was there a dowry that had to be given?
AC: Well, some of them could afford a good wedding and some not.
JP: When they had a reception they did have some man to get up and announce that Mr, and
Mrs. gave five dollars, but they don't do this anymore.
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Reb: Are the wedding gifts displayed before the wedding in the bride's home?
AC: Not that I know of.
CP: What about wedding showers?
JP: Yes, we still have showers.
Reb: As to Steele's Store itself...what businesses or buildings were located in the community
at the time that you were living there?
AC: Grocery stores and cotton gins. The Salvatos had a grocery store.
JP: Nick and Uncle Frank Salvato had a grocery store. They are both dead now.
CP: There is an old building built maybe thirty-five years ago, still on the original site of the old
Salvato store. Right across from the Cotton Patch there is a bigger building that was the original
place of the Salvatos grocery.
JP: There was one before that, but they tore it down.
Reb: What other businesses were out there? Was that basically it?
CP: There was a post office.
Reb: Was that a separate building?
JP: It was in with the grocery store..general merchandise. You could get anything that was
necessary.
CP: I guess that you could buy gasoline at the store, too?
JP: No, they didn't in the beginning, but later where Salvatos were they had pumps. Now
Daddy had a little station on the corner of Sandy Point Road and Highway #50. That's what he
did in between times when he was working cotton or corn.
CP: Tell her about the invention.
JP: My daddy invented a clod crusher and destroyer, and I did have it with me..I mean I had..
CP: The designs or whatever (plans).
JP: He never built it. See, sometimes the clods were big, especially in black land and they
would have to have something to break it up. He got the patent with some company up north, I
have forgotten now.
Reb: You think it might have been Channeley (sp?)?
JP: That was in 1916, but he was never able to get a prototype. So I guess somebody took his
instructions and everything and probably put one out similar to that, and I had the sheet that tells
everything.
Reb: We have a large number of Salvatos in Dickinson and I expect that they are some of this
same group who might have traveled south, also Liggios.
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CP: Most of the people came over from Louisiana and settled here to live as farmers...tenant
farmers. And then some moved to Galveston, Houston, whatever and went into business.
Reb: That's right, because there was some truck farming there in Dickinson and, of course;
they raised a lot of strawberries and figs. The rest became business people, and still to this day
their descendants are business people. Now I want to know if I have your pernussion to print
any or all of this information from this afternoon's interview into a book on the Italians of
Steele's Store?
AC: Yes. remember Claude Davis wanted to make one of those of the family and I couldn't tell
him where they were born. You see the flood took all of their records.
Reb: Thank you all very much for your time and for this information. I do appreciate your help
so much.
~.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Luke (Jobey) Ruffino (JR).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: August 19, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Jobey, will you give me your full name, including your maiden name?
JR: Josephine Marie Lampo Ruffino. My friends starting calling me "Jobey" in school.
Reb: How did they arrive at the name "Jobey?"
JR: They needed something short for the little slogans that I used when I was running for
cheerleader at the high school. "Jobey is short, she's sweet and she's light on her feet!"
Reb: Where were you born?
JR: In Bryan, Brazos County, Texas. November 3, 1922 at three o'clock on a Friday
afternoon.
Reb: Who were your parents?
JR: My mother was Antonina Grizzaffi and for years they just called her Lena. Salvatore
(Sam) John Lampo...Giova.nni Lampo.
Reb: Where were they born?
JR: They were both born here in Brazos County, Texas.
Reb: Who were your gaandpazents?
JR: I was named after my grandmother, she was Giuseppina Guagliazdo and they whittled
that down to Woodyard because of a lot of her brother's children who lived here. She married
Giovanni (John) Lampo and they were both born in Corleone (Palermo) Italy (Sicily).
Reb: Do you know when your grandparents came to the States?
JR: I would think the late 1890s because daddy wasn't born until about ten years after they
arrived.
Reb: Do you remember them?
JR: Oh, yes. My uncle was a little, short Italian man who wore a little cap and had a
mustache. My grandpazents, I remember them vividly because they lived down this lane from
us. We had a lane down at the- end of the street from our backyard.
Reb: What was the name of the street?
JR: They lived on the street that is now called Sims. We lived on Parker and I remember
carrying ice with my grandfather on a stick, the ice was on a string. I remember he used to tell
a lot of beautiful stories. I wish that I had written them down.
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Reb: Yes, but we never think about doing that when we are young.
JR: Then, when he passed away I had to spend the night with grandmother, she was
Giuseppina Woodyard, every other night. My brother and I had to take turns spending the
night with her. And then my other grandparents, my mother's mother and father were Luke
Grizzaffi and Maria Cemina and we are not sure whether she was related to Bonnie (Campo) or
not. My brother's wife, Bonnie, her maiden name was Cemina. I remember my Grandpa
Luke died before her so that I had to spend some nights with her and she was right next door to
us. I also remember riding a buggy to church with her and I loved it.
Reb: Was this aone-horse buggy?
JR: Yes.
Reb: Were you going to St. Anthony's Church? Do you remember some of their stories?
JR: He (grandfather) talked about the war in Italy and how his children served, but I really
don't (remember). They did say that they didn't like the way people were acting there and they
wanted to get away and that's why they came to the United States.
Reb: What did they do in Corleone? Did they faun?
JR: Yes.
Reb: Did they come through the Port of New Orleans?
JR: They sure did.
Reb: Were they married when they arrived?
JR: They were man!ied because they brought Uncle Ben with them.
Reb: And they came at the same time then?
JR: They sure did.
Reb: Were they part of the group that worked in the sugar cane fields?
JR: I think they did. I think dad said that he worked for five or ten cents a day. I don't
remember when they arrived in the Brazos Valley.
Reb: How many children did your grandparents have?
JR: They had Angelo, Tony and Lena.
Reb: So these are aunts and uncles?
JR: Yes. The little Angelo was kicked by a mule and died here at their farm place. Their
farm was at the end of Dilly Shaw Tap Road and that's where they did their farming.
Reb: Which direction is Dilly Shaw Tap Road from here?
JR: In the direction of the Texas Hall of Fame.
Reb: Would that have been part of the Cameron Ranch group? I understand that there was
quite an Italian settlement there where the St. Anthony Fellowship Hall is located.
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JR: Right. I think that road led to Edge and Kurten. There was a gentleman named Mr.
Parker who helped them buy their land. Dad got married at the age of twenty and he managed
,..;,-: to come into the city right away and that's when I was born. They were married in 1920 and I
was born in 1922, so actually he lived in the city and didn't get to farm like a lot of his brother
- and sisters did.
Reb: Where were you born?
JR: I was born in a little house right next to us. That was on Pazker...on the corner of Parker
and 17th St. in Bryan. A midwife, my little Aunt Rosie Carrabba helped to deliver me but
they did call Dr. L.O. Wilkerson in and he said that she did an excellent job, since she didn't
drop me on my head. We lived next door to them for years and years until they both passed
away. My high school days were right at that corner. I had a good life at school, I loved it.
Reb: Which schools did you attend?
JR: I went to Bowie from the first grade through the fifth. I flunked the fifth grade. The
principal called me in and said, "Josephine, there's more to school than play and to prove it to
you, I want to see what kind of memory you have." He put me in the fourth grade play and, of
course, I was sensational and he kind of opened my eyes to what there was in school, but not
soon enough to make better grades in the fifth grade. But I went to Travis that one year and
met a lot of wonderful teachers. I loved my teachers at Bowie, too. I specifically remember
Mr. Bethany, Margaret Pazker, Mrs. Zuber, Mrs. Henry, they were all wonderful teachers. I
can't remember my Travis teachers since I was only there one half of a semester. But I think
failing in the fifth grade made new avenues for me to meet new people who elected me to being
cheerleader in high school, and those four yeazs at high school, were really great.
.Reb: It was good that you had to repeat that yeaz.
JR: And that experience with the fourth grade gave me a chance to be in the melodrama and
any play that came up where there teacher thought I would be good.
Reb: So what other activities were you involved in during school?
JR: With the Children of Mary at church. I loved Father Bravi and Father Peter (Villani) with
St. Anthony's. I don't remember anything eazlier. I know dad remembers the church burning
and then building another one, but I don't remember it because I don't remember what yeaz it
was. I was president of the Children of Mary at one time and then there was a little society
called the Sacred Heart Society. I joined that and I just remember so many of the beautiful
friends I had. Phyllis Palasota was one of my dearest friends. She was like Gina Lollibrigitta
and had all the boyfriends and, since she could have them all, I had her leftovers. Daddy
caused us to have a good time, because he was president of several clubs and he instigated the
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parties and the dances and dancing was our life. You know we couldn't date...we had to
depend on the dances and the parties that the church gave.
Reb: You couldn°t date mainly because of traditional reasons?
JR: Right.
Reb: When was supposed to be the allowable time for a girl to date?
JIt: I think maybe at the age of twenty-one, when their spouses (to be) were ready to put a
ring on their forger.
Reb: In other words, you almost had to be engaged to a person before you could date him?
JR: And if you went to church with them one time, the whole church knew you were engaged
or you were going to get your ring the next day. But I was allowed to date once or twice with
a group, they got a little more lenient with their children, they were just protective of their
children.
Reb: And don't you think that probably this was a carry over from the old country, these
traditions and feelings?
JR: The only change I hunk they made was that the parents picked spouses and introduced
them or said they were going to get married whereas, daddy met my mother at church and fell
in love with her. Then he tells his mother, "That's the lady I want to marry." Before they
were paired together. So I felt that daddy was a little bit more modem.
Reb: What other customs do you think had an influence on your early years? Customs that
you know had been brought over from Sicily?
JR: Very definitely the St. Joseph Altars played a big part in our lives because we had erected
one and then we were saints in several and prayer was the first thing that came into our minds
and church. We couldn°t go to the show in the afternoon if you didn't go to Mass. I don't
regret the way they raised us. Their strictness and their rules and laws of the house were not
that bad because like I said daddy was very influential. We had a lot of love in our house. My
dad took time to play cards with us and teach us those silly little games like "7 1/2'° and " 21 °°
and briscola, scuba and he even playedbocci.
Reb: Bocci, isn't that an Italian lawn bowling game?
JR: You roll a black ball down (a lane) and try to hit the black ball with money sitting on top.
I never learned to play because, really, it was a man's game, but my daddy took time to play
with us. IIe was a fun person and mother was never really educated, she could barely read a
recipe but she loved to do that. She had more common sense in her little finger than most of
us had in our whole body of her lifetime. She didn't have much formal education....I think
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she went as far as the third grade and I think that was at Knob's Prairie, across the street from
the Hall of Fame. And I believe that daddy went to Knob's Prairie.
Reb: I know you were active in sports. Which were your favorites?
JR: I loved volley ball, baseball. That's where my two girls got their love for sports, and
that's why they are both coaching, I guess. At noon we didn't try to catch up on lessons, we
went downstairs and we were the actresses and actors, we girls and boys made up our own
plays. From the time I saw Lucille Ball, I had always had this secret desire to be like her, so
we did make-up and those things and I just knew that one day I would be discovered.
Reb: Did you finish high school?
JR: I went through Bowie and Travis and then Stephen F. Austin, which was the high school
at that time. Now it is a Junior High School. Afterwards I attended McKenzie-Baldwin
Business School I got a job for a wonderful person named Mr. Walter Doney. He ran a
weekly newspaper.
Reb: What was the nature of your job?
JR: I interviewed people on the street and it was wonderful. We had a column and we would
interview men and women, and I also sold advertisements. I loved doing it, I guess I am just a
born little saleslady.
Reb: You really are a public relations person at heart and a good one. How long did you
work for Mr. Doney?
JR: Until I got married, a couple of years.
Reb: How did you meet your husband.
JR: At a church bingo party. We went to everything the church gave and I was sitting with a
bunch of ladies playing my bingo card and this handsome young man came up and grabbed my
-card out of my hand and said, "Get yourself another one." So I got another and thought,
"Gosh this guy is cute." At the end of the bingo he said, "Take this card home with you." I
still have that card. It says, "I love you" on the back of it. He had been watching me at church
for some time, I guess. It made a sweet story because I still have it . I showed that card at my
twenty-fifth anniversary party. Luke and I were married in 1942. I remember Grandma
Giuseppina used to come to the house and when Luke visited me, she'd tell my dad, "Why
don't you let those two kids get married?" Daddy said, "Well, he hasn't asked her yet." She
didn't like us sitting on the porch and people driving by (seeing us) because they were that old-
fashioned.
Reb: How did your husband propose to you?
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JR: After we realized we were in love and after he had asked me to marry him, he asked,
"How do I go about....?" I said, "Well, you've got to get your mother and dad to come to my
mother and dad and tell them that you would like to have my hand in marriage." It was fun,
you know.
Reb: This was another tradition carried over from the old country. No doubt they gave their
approval and you were married when?
JR: November 22, 1942.
Reb: Did you have a hope chest?
JR: Oh, yes, we worked on that from the time I was ten years old. When I was growing up
salesmen came from Italy and brought merchandise over like cut velvet bedspreads and velour
scarves for the dressers and pillows. Mother began putting some things in the cedar chests and
I still have some of them. As a matter of fact I used one of the spreads for a tablecloth for
something that my daughter-in-law, Cherry, was involved in at the Briarcrest Country Club.
Reb: Yes, I remember, the Christmas tables display.
JR: Yes, we used a St. Joseph's Altar theme with all the candles and special foods.
Reb: Was that chest called a "hope chest?"
JR: Yes, or a trousseau. And that was fun, I found myself doing it for my girls but it wasn't
like we did with mother. Things kept getting prettier, more improved with designs and
decorations.
Reb: Did your mother make things to put into your trousseau?
JR: Yes, she did...embroidered cup towels and some plain. I found quite a few things in my
hope chest.
Reb: Did you have many crochet things?
JR: Most of my things were embroidered, pillowcases and cup towels, but Aunt Maggie
L.ampo, my dad's brother's wife, did a lot of crocheting and I still have some of those.
Reb: What are some of your favorite foods that you remember your mother fixing?
JR: Oh, yes, if we didn't have the pasta, sauce and the meatballs, we didn't have lunch.
Nobody enjoyed the baked chicken or roast.
Reb: And about how often would you have that?
JR: Every Sunday. Either Uncle Ben and Aunt Maggie would come to our house or we
would go to Grandma's. Uncle Ben and Aunt Maggie came from the country, the old home
place, with their three boys: Mike, John and Joe, they were either at our house or at Grandma's
house. And there was this Aunt Rosie Carrabba who helped deliver me. It was tradition: you
had lunch with these people.
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Reb: How many members are in your family?
JR: My brother, Johnny is two and a half years younger than I am and he married little
Bonnie Cemina. They have five children and I don't know how many grandchildren...maybe
six.
Reb: And so were you and your brother very mischievous when you were young?
JR: Yes. One of the cutest things that he did, was including me with his three cousins in their
baseball games, because I was the only girl. We played games at the table, we played an old
record player and danced and we would go to the movies together. But Johnny was a favorite
person from the time he was born. I remember how finicky he was about eating. I ate
everything, but he was a little about eating spinach and such. One thing I remember was that
he would close his eyes like this and if there was something he wanted he would reach over to
get it because he thought that if his eyes were closed no one could see him do that. Another
thing I remember was that if mother and daddy would say that it was time to go to bed and turn
out the lights we we'd sit down on the sofa before we went to bed and we would play games
by playing a tune on our arms (taps arm quietly to the rhythm of melody "Beer Barrel Polka.").
We would score by trying to guess the song. I'll bet nobody else in the world has ever played
that. game. And do you remember the game show, "Name That Tune?" Well, we invented that
game. I also remember that when Johnny and I got into wrestling matches I could always
throw him down. But after he took the Charles Atlas course he landed me on my back and I
never tried to wrestle again with him. He'd grown up and had grown taller.
Reb: You must have been a real tomboy!
JR: Very definitely. I wore slacks all of the time and it was fun being the only girl with my
brother and three cousins.
Reb: When you and your husband were first married, where did you live?
JR: With my mother and dad, with my mother-in-law and father-in-law and with my little
aunt. We finally decided we wanted to get away ...we had no privacy. I won't do that again.
Reb: For how long did you do that?
JR: Well, we were married in November and in March Luke was sent to the service, so really
we did that for three months definitely. But then when I couldn't follow Luke overseas I came
back and still did the same flung and lived mostly with my pazents and worked at a grocery
called The Red and White, I think, at that time I think I started off with ten dollazs a week.
This was in Bryan.
Then I worked up to thirty dollars a week and then thirty-five, which was good money in
those days. When we lived with Aunt Rosie here, by that time the two grandmothers has died,
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and she befriended us I worked within walking distance from her house. I don't remember
what yeaz that was. We took Gaze of her when she was sick. She had an adopted son in
Houston, but he died before she did so that there was no one (to take care of her). We thought
that maybe we could even buy the house after she passed away but that could not be worked
out.
I was kind of a "scazdy cat" and I remember one night during the time that she was sick,
Luke had gone someplace to a meeting, and I had a real sheer curtain in my bedroom. It blew
into my face and I heard her foot dragging while she was trying to get to the bathroom. Well,
it scared me so, I ran into there and said, "Aunt Rosie, call me next time, I'll help you get to the
bathroom." Anyway a few months later when she died, we went back to Mother's house to
stay a few nights, we still didn't have a home of our own, and Luke said, "We've got all of our
things at Aunt Rosie's house, let's go back there until they ask us to move and until we can get
things straightened out." I agreed. The first night we were laying there and the wind blew the
shade into my face and I imagined I heazd the (her) cane. I made my husband get up, dress
and walk the six blocks back to my mother and daddy's house, they lived on the same street.
We never went back.
Even my father admitted that he didn°t like living alone, since he was staying with us at the
time. I don't mind, he°s a wonderful house guest. Six months after Luke went into the service
he had an emergency appendectomy and my mother-in-law and I went to his base and stayed in
the guest house for three days and nights (which was the limit).I changed my mind about
returning home with her and let her go on by herself. I had met a little Italian lady from New
Jersey who arranged for me to stay another three nights and I don't remember how she
managed that.
In the meantime, Luke was convalescing well from his surgery and had to go back to the
barracks to stay, so I could only see him at certain times. I saw an ad that read,"Maid service,
to live in on the post in exchange for room and board." I didn't have much experience in
housework since I was always so involved with cheer leading and other activities. I decided to
answer the ad and when I knocked on the door I said, "I'd like to apply for the job you have."
With Luke working twenty-four hours on and twenty-four hours off I knew I would be all
right with so many people azound. The lady said, " I have a new baby, can you help take care
of a new baby?" I said, "Okay." She replied," You know you will have to wash diapers and I
am not well. I will want you to bring breakfast to me upstairs." I said, "Well, I can do that, I'll
be glad to do that. Try me for a week and if I don't work out I will go someplace else.°° So
she tried me for a week. I would get up at five o'clock every morning, every newspaper was
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picked up and the house swept and mopped and the clothes ready to put out on the line before
her husband came down. She had a basement downstairs. And when her husband came down
and the living room straight, glasses put away, dishes clean from dinner the night before, he
ran upstairs and said to his wife, "Listen, that girl you're not letting her go, she's just what
we've been looking for." They liked me and I liked them. As a matter of fact, they came to
see us thirty yeazs later and told us about their family and how they had worked hard and were
traveling and had stayed in the army. He was with the Social Security branch of the army and
she worked at Sears, so that they had built a little nest egg and were able to travel all over the
world. Anyway, while working for them I met two other neighbors, Mrs. Nelson and Mrs.
Henderson, and after work I taught them to "jitterbug" and to dance. We ate together and they
never treated me like a maid.
But one night, when I was all dressed up ready to meet Luke, he asked me where I was
going. I said, "Well, this is the only night Luke and I can see "Gone With the Wind." He
said, "You're not going." I replied, "Sir, it's the only night we have and you and Margie can
see it other times. I wish you wouldn't do that to us." He replied, "Well, we're doing it!" It
took thirty years for me to get over what he had done to me that rright. I didn't hold it against
him, I knew he must have reasons but they wouldn't have sounded good to me anyway.
When I came back they wanted me to live with them and I wouldn't do it and they were very
disappointed so I lived with the Nelsons and they had two children, Anne and Guy. What had
happened was that Luke was stationed at Ft. Knox, Kentucky for a year and then he was
transferred to Colorado Springs, which I loved and then transferred back to Ft. Knox.
At the time I wasn't twenty-one yet and I still liked to play ball in the street with the kids.
Upon my return to Ft. Knox I made a phone call from the station saying," I'm going to walk
up your street, tell the kids I'm here." And I was met with the most wonderful greeting, all of
the kids in the neighborhood came out to meet me. That was my first trip back after I had
left...there were the Henderson kids, the Nelson kids and a couple of others in the
neighborhood. I wound up crying, it was so beautiful. Somehow the Nelsons were
transferred and I went back and lived with all three of the people. This Mrs. Nelson and her
husband, Lee, finally moved to San Antonio and he's dead now. she came to see me about a
yeaz ago. I have lost track of the Henderson, they are divorced, one became a doctor and one a
lawyer. Both of the husbands are dead now. One girl still lives here and one lives in Houston.
In Colorado Springs, Luke didn't send for me, I rode with those girls back to there. He had an
ingrown toenail which required surgery and he couldn't walk with the stitches so that he
wasn't able to help me find an apartment. But it was a chance for me to share gas and
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companionship but when I got there I had no place to live.. I took the newspaper and walked
the streets of Colorado Springs and my last stop was at the church and there I prayed, "Blessed
Mother, my husband didn't want me to come and maybe this is a lesson, but please help me
find a place to stay the night." So I went to the hotel near the church, all of this walking, and
they had one room left in the hotel and only for one night. I was so scared that I put every
piece of furniture that I could move in front of that door that night. The next morning I went
back to the church and prayed, "Please help me find a place to live." There was a bicycle shop
and cleaners nearby and I asked to speak to the manager and said,"I am desperate, I have no
place to sleep tonight," and I cried. She said, "Jobey, I don't have a place for you." "Don't
you have a roll away bed, could I stay in your room?" "Darling, I just don't do that, but I have
a beauty shop up here and if you want to I can get you a cot." I said, "I'll take it." You see,
Luke still couldn't come home to be with me because of that foot.
Iteb: Was he hospitalized?
JIt: Yes, and I stayed in that room and I said to the manager, "I've been staying in Fort Knox
and if you want me to help you besides paying the rent I can help you with the housework."
"No, I have a maid that does my work, but would you mind doing my refrigerator?'° So every
Tuesday or Wednesday, that was my job. In the meantime someone moved out and I was able
to have one room that had one closet and one face basin. We had to share the bath in this hotel
and we stayed there the whole year. We never went out to try to find another because on that
certain day...it was either Tuesday or Wednesday, she would have me clean the refrigerator
and take me to lunch at a church, where everyday they had chicken pot pies. It made an
imprint on my heart because it was the way I got to live with Luke and he was still working
twenty-four hours on and twenty-four hours off.
In the meantime, that's all I had to do was to clean my little room and her one little room and
that one little refrigerator and go to that little luncheon. One day when I took my clothes to the
cleaners there was sign that said, "Employees Needed.'° So I asked Mr. Potts about the job, I
still remember his name, the lady's name was Miss Tiger, who had the beauty shop. He said,
"Have you had any experience?" I said, "None whatsoever." He said, "I need experience
to.." I said, °'Your sign didn°t say that, but let me tell you something. Hire me for a week and
if you don°t like me you don't even have to pay me." He said, °'You know, I think I'll do
that." I started off using the air machine that takes spots off of ties and then pants. One
employee went on vacation and he asked me if I wanted to learn to do the press and I did pants
and handkerchiefs and other things, as well.
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One thing that I don't believe I have ever remembered to tell my children: one day
somebody left $200 in their pants pocket, and for someone who didn't get but fifty dollars a
week it sure looked good, but I couldn't keep it. I took it to Mr. Potts and said, "Mr. Potts, I
found this money in these pants." He might have been testing me, but I don't think so,
because the man came back and he said they had told him that the little lady back there found
the money when she was spotting his pants. He said, "I want to meet her," and he gave me
five dollars.
Reb: Well, that was nice, wasn't it?
JR: When Luke was sent back to Colorado Springs, my brother came to see us and we were
able to see Pikes Peak, Cave of the Winds, Gardens of the gods, and the Biltmore Hotel where
the stars all went. We went to the ice rink to skate. I was a roller skater but Luke was not.
We decided to try ice skating and I was on my seat the whole time, my ankles were not strong
enough and Luke was skating all around. When we got ready to leave Colorado Springs, Mr.
Potts asked Luke to let me stay with them, I had learned the cleaning business well and was
able to substitute when employees left on vacation. Luke asked me what I wanted to do, I
responded, "I'm going wherever you go."So we returned to Fort Knox and that's when the
kids on the street gave me such a warm welcome back.
That year we played a lot of "dodge ball." I also read stories and had a lot of time because I
always finished my housework by ten o'clock in the morning and put a roast in the oven. I
don't believe that my mother could believe that I had become a little old lady, but I was a kid at
heart. I would baby-sit at night. When Luke and I would go away we would go to Louisville,
Kentucky, and went to the wedding of his first sergeant and I had pictures of that and then
when he was ready to be discharged we were at living at the Hendersons then. They gave me
more freedom than the first couple I stayed with. That couple tried to keep me from attending
the wedding and when I threatened to quit, the wife, Marie, even sewed a dress for me to wear
so that I could be in that wedding. The husband was very difficult to get along with. He°s
dead now.
Reb: Did he stay in the military?
JR: Yes, but he was never promoted higher than a master sergeant.
Reb: In retrospect would you still have done these same things while Luke was in the
service?
JR: There are a few things that I would do differently if I went back, if I had it to do over. I
would try and live in a little apartment, but we had no money either. That made those decisions
easy. We had no car and would have had to go eight miles. I washed baby diapers and
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couldn't believe I was doing that, but those people were good to me, except for that one man.
Often Luke would bring home food that was extra from the base and that would help us a lot.
While we were in Kentucky we were able to visit the home of Stephen Foster and the Onyx
Caves. That's how we met Vick and Vera Emmanuel...they had a car. Because they had a caz
we were able to see that part of the country. Thirty yeazs later they contacted us. Later on in
the years Vera took me back to the house where we met and I had lived...all three of them, one
was on this corner, one was on this and this one was like one house between us. That's why I
was able to work all three places, because we were friends. We have pictures of ourselves in
shorts. We had a lot of nice times when the husbands weren't around. Sometimes we were
together all day and often we went to the show together. Vera has visited with two or three
times since showing me those houses and when I have visited with her we saw many historical
places between there and Memphis, Tennessee, which is where she lives. We had to go
through Kentucky so it was easy to go by my old ........we went to the church and the chapel
on the post and asked the priest for one of their books and it was the same as when I there,
thirty years earlier.
Reb: Did Luke stay in the same company and division?
JR. He was in the 785th all the way, because you see when he came back after his discharge
in 1946 we went into the grocery business. It was called Ruffino's Grocery. I think they just
left the sign the way it was.
Reb: What street was it on?
JR: It was on the very end of Bryan Street. There was a cotton compress across the street.
Luke and I had the store for five years and had just gotten our bills all paid and were going to
try to make a little profit when he was called to the Korean conflict.
Reb: Was that store anywhere close to Ursuline Avenue?
JR: No, that°s Mike°s, Luke°s brother. Most of the Ruffino's, my father-in-law and brothers
were in the grocery business. My father-in-law had a family of ten, so Luke and I have had
quite a bit of experience (in the grocery business). My dad and my brother, Johnny, had gone
into the grocery business when they bought Ball's Grocery on 25th Street. So when we had to
give up the business because of Luke's militazy commitment, my dad and Johnny bought our
equipment and groceries. I had decided to follow Luke that yeaz and he was on bivouac a lot,
but we stayed in Wyoming. I stayed a year with him in San Antonio.
Reb: About what year was that?
JR: About 1951, I think. I have his honorable dischazge papers. When I met lum he was a
bread man, working for John's Fine Bread from Waco. When I was cute and little he used to
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take me with him to get his loaves of bread and bring them to Bryan and sell them. I used to
work for Orr°s Minimax on Main Street in Bryan. We had another Uncle John DeLuke and
Aunt Lena who had a small store and they were ready to retire. When Luke delivered his bread
they would tell him how tired they were. He would tell Luke that the only way you could
make it (in the grocery business) was to "open at seven o'clock in the morning and stay open
until ten o'clock at night." So that's what Luke and I did. ('They bought the DeLuke's
Grocery) We had a little home in the back. Today, my children would never live in something
like that. It was a little "shotgun" house: all three rooms were in a row. We stayed there
several years and right across the street from Janie and Sammy Cangelose and Mrs. Lucy
Cangelose. We were really nice competitors right across the street. We learned about hard
work stocking groceries. Luke was the butcher and I was the cashier. It was called Luke's
Grocery, it used to be DeLuke's Grocery.
On Texas Avenue, about twelve blocks down, Luke had the opportunity to buy the Forest
West Grocery Store. They opened up at eight o'clock in the morning and closed at six o'clock
in the evening and were closed on Sundays and did not sell beer. We came in, we opened up
at seven o'clock in the morning and closed at ten o'clock in the evening, sold beer and opened
on Sundays. Luke and I were able to pay for the purchase of the property and the store within
three years. People accused us of having Teresa Ann born on a scale outside and we had a big
scale that weighed things and they had Joe Johnny born on either a butcher block or checking
counter and Rosemary on watermelons. When they would fall asleep their arms would be on
one or the other. I did have help, though, we couldn't spend those kind of hours and be with
the two of them Joe Johnny was born in 1950 and Theresa in 1947, so they both had lives in
the store from the beginning.
Reb: When was Rosemary born?
JR: In 1962. We were at the tail end of this before the U-Totem people (took over). She was
at this store. Our home was at the back of the store, as a matter of fact, Uncle Tony's store had
living quarters at the back, that was the one on Bryan Street. Uncle John DeLuke's
store...their house was down the block. We always had help, we never left the children alone.
As the kids grew older they helped us in the store. Right at the end of our term here,
Rosemary was in the fourth grade over at Henderson School.
Reb: Then, during her early years you were still operating the stores?
JR: Yes. Johnny (my brother) came to work for us, that's when they sold their bottle store.
Dad was able to move back to Parker Street. When they took over Ball's grocery they had a
house across the street. they came back and remodeled the old home place and since then dad
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has sold it. When Johnny came to work for us Luke and I were then able to have a little time
off. We bought a big ranch, the four of us (Johnny & Bonnie and Luke & I) at Kurten and we
were able to be off Tuesday and every other Sunday. And for five years it was wonderful. By
that time, my brother decided to go into business for himself and he had the opportunity to buy
the Seven/Eleven Store that is currently owned by Donnie Fazzino. It's on Texas Avenue,
right next store to the Pizza Hut. Luke and I did this for about 25 years. Helen (Ruffmo)
helped me a lot. My husband's one brother, Luke, is married to Helen and they have two
children, Donnie and Patsy.
Reb: So when did all of you affiliate with Pizza Hut?
JR: When Johnny left us, after the five years, he went into the Pizza Hut business with
Sammy Cangelose and we also had an opportunity to go with Pizza Hut which we did around
1965 or 1967. We have been with them now for about twenty years. Johnny is president of
Pizza Hut Enterprises here in this area and my husband is vice-president.
Reb: And does he consider himself partially retired?
JR: He will now. I think Luke is just now reaching that partially retired feeling. We're
working on it now. I retired for one and I couldn°t stand it so I went into the dress business
and had a darling little shop.
Reb: What year would that have been?
JR: After we were in the grocery business. It was located in downtown Bryan where the old
City National Bank was on the corner of 26th and Main Street. I had the shop about seven
years. I first started off where Suniland Pharmacy is, then the Navy office and a little
restaurant.
Reb: What was the name of your dress shop?
JR: Jobey's Dress Shop. One day a customer, Mrs. Jones, saw me drawing the sign for the
shop and she said, "You know that is always what I have wanted to do, would you like a
partner?" And so we tried it together. It didn't work out because she worked at Sears and
didn't want to quit and her daughter wanted her to put all of her energy in with her so they
called it °'Ruth's." So Cindy Vance was in business with her mother after she was in business
with me first. She was a wonderful person, she is dead now, but I loved her and working
with her. Her decision to work with her own daughter was her reason for quitting and there
really was not enough work for both of us (in the shop). Then I had a chance to move into the
building that the Varisco Estate owned and I was there for about three years.
Reb: What is your current home address:
JR: 601 S. Gordon Street in Bryan and it was built in 1967.
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Reb: Where are your children living?
JR: Joe Johnny has two bottle shops, one at 1219 Texas Avenue and the other at the
intersection of South Texas Avenue and Harvey Road. His wife's name is Cherry...they were
married August 13. -They have three children" a daughter, Antonio (Toni) age fourteen who
was named after my mother. Then there is Luke who will soon be twelve and little Joey who
is five. Cherry works for Richard Smith in his real estate business. She loves her job and has
been a part of our family since the day Joe married her. Our other daughter, Teresa Ann, lives
in Houston. She was married to John Cannaughton and she has one son, Patrick, age nine..
Reb: And what is she doing?
JR: She has a very prestigious job s head of the physical education department at Alief High
School in Alief, Texas. She doesn't have to coach as much as she used to. She was in a new
school at Stafford, near Houston, for awhile. What is nice is that Patrick will be able to go to
school across the street from where Teresa works.
Reb: And your youngest child, Rosemary?
JR: She is coaching at McNeese University in Lake Charles, Louisiana. But before then she
received a scholarship to be on the Aggie Ladies softball team and I was able to follow her all
over the place.This was while she was attending Texas A&M University. I am just so thankful
that my husband Luke was so generous in letting me go.
Reb: So your love of sports has carried through to your children's lives as well as their
work.
JR: They (the girls) both played. Even Teresa played until late in her life. Rosemary started
with Bryan Pazks and Recreation. Then she went on to get her master's degree at Sam
Houston State University and was an assistant coach to the softball team there. And winning
the national championships with the Aggies gave her a couple of notches in her belt so that her
resume looked pretty good. i think she's pretty smart.
Reb: As you know, I am going to try to compile this series of interviews into a history of the
local Italians, most particulazly those who lived in the Steele's Store azea. I will probably only
use excerpts from these interviews. Have you any objection to this?
JR: No. I would like to have copies of the transcriptions. I do have an old book that dates
back to the 1930s and I do have pictures of my grandparents.
Reb: Are you in contact with any relatives in Sicily?
JR: I surely am. They are Nicolosi Calegro Pierre and I have been writing to them. I took
Italian with a group of friends and am able to correspond with them. They are thrilled that we
can write back and forth. These are people that mother sent clothes to and a wedding dress to
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the little bride. And I am writing to the little lady that mother sent the bridal gown to and that's
made us closer.
Reb: Have any of these people come over to visit you?
JR: No, but they have invited me. They have offered to open their home to me. It°s been fun
and we have been writing for about four years. They have sent pictures to us of my mother
and father and my brother and me and the bride and groom mother had sent the dress to. It's a
small world.
Reb: In addition to all your activities and experiences, what are you involved in these days in
regards to organizations.
JR: I am a past president of St. Anthony°s Altar Society, where I served for two terms. I
belong to the Ladies Auxiliary at St. Joseph's Hospital and the A&M Mother°s Club and I
loved helping with their fund raiser for the year, by taking charge of the lasagna supper. This
love of cooking helped me to win the first place prize in the The Press contest.
Reb: What were the recipes that you submitted?
JR: Stuffed artichokes. We aze afun-loving family and cooking is pazt of the fun.
Reb: And you enjoy music as well?
JR: Yes, a lot. I have a player piano with two hundred rolls of music and when the family
comes over like Mary Anne (Bonnie's little girl) and Franlde and Cheryl and Carolyn and
Sammy, my nephews, Chris and John (Bonnie's children) we have a ball.
Reb: That°s quite a large collection of rolls.
JR: I ordered some from New York yesterday. That's what I want for my birthday...more
rolls. We do a lot of Italian singing with the parties that we have. How about the time you and
I were invited to one of the schools to give a talk on Italy....it was International Day at Bonham
Elementary School. I am looking forwazd to doing it again. I stay pretty busy, even though I
am sixty-five yeazs old.
Reb: Well, Jobey, thank you again for your time and all of this valuable information
regarding you and your family.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. John Marino (MLM) with comments by her husband, John Marino (JM)
and Josephine (Jobey) Lampo Ruffmo (JR).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: October 25, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Mrs. Marino, what was your maiden name?
MLM: Mazy Lena Degelia.
Reb: Where were you born?
MLM: I was born here in Brazos County, not too faz from the Lampos on Dilly Shaw Road.
September 12, 1917.
Reb: What were the names of your parents?
MLM: Sam and Lena Degelia.
Reb: And where they born?
MLM: My mother was born in Texas, Brazos County, but my daddy came from Italy when he
was seven yeazs old. I think it was Sicily.
Reb: Do you know when your father came to the United States?
MLM: His birthday was August 16. I can figure what yeaz.
Reb: (Looking at a document). This shows that your father was born in 1888.
MLM: He died in 1965.
Reb: So if he was seven yeazs old when he came to the States then that would have been .1895.
Do you know who came with him?
MLM: I wouldn't know. He had an older sister and then he was next, and one child was
deceased and he just had one sister and one brother.
Reb: Did they come through the Port of New Orleans?
MLM: I don't know.
Reb: Do you know whether they worked in the sugaz cane fields in Louisiana before they
arrived here?
MLM: My mother was born here on the old home place neaz where Mrs. McDonald (who
worked for Father John Malinowski) lived on Tabor Road.
Reb: Do you have any idea where your father's family lived when they came over?
MLM: Yes, their home place was here on Dilly Shaw Road.
Reb: Well, then your pazents were practically neighbors, weren't they?
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MLM: They didn°t live too far apart. That was our home place, where Aunt Lucy lives now.
Reb: Do you remember your parents talking about their younger days?
MLM: They really wouldn't talk about it very much.
Reb: Do you think this was because they had left unhappy memories behind?
MLM: Well, his (John Marino) mother and daddy were all here. He (her husband, John
Marino) was the oldest and had an older sister but then he had three more sisters and four
brothers..so the family was all here.
Reb: Where did they go to church at that time?
MLM: They used to call him Padre Antonio...the priest from St. Joseph's Church, then that
church burned down.
Reb: Can you tell me anything about the wedding of your mother and father?
MLM: I don°t remember a thing about that.
Reb: Did you speak Italian in the home?
MLM: Sure, all of the time. We had to go to school to learn how to speak English
Reb: Where did you go to school?
MLM: At Knob Prairie School. See, we walked because we lived on Dilly Shaw and we
walked all across there where Ward-Mooring had their dairy and I didn't go to school. I doubt if
I went thirty days all of my time. Our parents just wouldn°t let us go to school. Our tradition
was to work, I don't know that my daddy ever went to school. I don't remember my mother
going to school either. Neither of them could write or sign their names.
Reb: They worked hard to support their families. So you spent most of your time working?
MLM: Yes, at home.
Reb: What were your responsibilities in the home when you were growing up?
MLM: I worked in the fields and I picked cotton. I would pick a hundred pounds of cotton
before noon and was a load of clothes and come home and help with the dishes. Then I would
walk back to the field and pick another hundred pounds. I would have all my brothers beat, I
had fast hands and that's the way I do my housework.
Reb: Then did you do any of the cooking and baking in the household?
MLM: Oh sure, I did some of the cooking but mother would do most of it. The only thing my
mother wouldn't let me do was iron, but I ironed, cooked and baked.
Reb: How many brothers and sisters did you have.
MLM: I had five brothers and four are still living, three live in Dallas and one lives in Manville,
close to Galveston.
Reb: What time did your day of work begin?
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MLM: Very early in the morning. My daddy would call me to come fix breakfast and
sometimes it was too early when the moon was still out, but I would stay up until time to fix
breakfast.
Reb: What would be a typical breakfast that you would fix?
MLM: I'd fix fried potatoes, cornbread or bread and milk. I'd make the coffee to have with
bread and milk.
Reb: Did you have milk cows on your farm?
MLM: Yes and mules and horses, chickens, not a whole lot, but we always had chickens and
fresh eggs.
Reb: Did you have a vegetable garden?
MLM: We raised most everything....corn, tomatoes galore, peas, artichokes, black-eyed peas,
okra, squash, watermelon, eggplants and green. My mother and daddy bought very little from
the store.
Reb: Did you do any canning?
MLM: Yes, she canned lots of tomatoes, peaches and pears. Really, we had a lot of fruits.
We had an orchard and he would raise all kinds of fruit. He could graft the fruit trees and we
even had apples and pears, figs, and peaches.
Reb: I am surprised that apples would grow here.
MLM: Yes, we had all of that. We had beautiful peaches, which canned in jars and they would
keep, and pears, too.
Reb: What about your foods, such as pasta, which I know must have been pretty important in
your household?
MLM: We had it once or twice a week.
Reb.: And what was your favorite sauce for the pasta?
MLM: Tomato sauce, maybe one a week, but during the week she would fix pasta with
English peas (piselli) but now I call that pasta lavada. I also cook a lot of split peas in the
wintertime. I try to cook these too often because I never know when to stop.
Reb: What about bread other than cornbread? Did you make your own bread?
MLM: My mother did. I didn't make bread at home because she made bread just about every
day.
Reb: What kind of store did you have?
MLM: To start off we had a wood stove and after that we had a coal oil stove, in fact, we had a
coal oil stove until we moved to Dallas. .
Reb: Were those the stoves with the big water wells so that you always had boiling water?
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MLM: No, this didn't have that. It was just an ordinary wood stove. You would put wood in
one place and then you had the top to cook on and an oven to bake in. It was really hard to bake
in.
Reb: Did you learn to tell the temperature by putting your hand in?
MLM: No, we'd just look at it and we would know.
Reb: How did you and John meet?
MLM: Well, I knew him all the time, and I guess he knew me. He was running the gin and
he'd come to visit and my daddy would go to the cotton gin with him.
J1VI: I had to come to talk to her daddy, and so he°d bring his cotton up there.
MLM: We didn't want my daddy to go gin there because we would rather he go to gin in town
so he could bring us something back from the store.
Reb: How were you and you and John married?
MLM: I was twenty-five and we married on January 7 and I think in 1943.
Reb: What kind of a wedding did you have, Mary Lena, was it a typical Italian wedding?
MLM: We got married at St. Joseph's Church in Dallas.
Reb: Why did you go to Dallas to get married?
MLM: We had moved to Dallas just a year before we got married.
Reb: Your family moved to Dallas?
MLM: Yes, the family went into business. My mother's people were all there and they put us
in business.
Reb: What kind of business were you in?
MLM: In the grocery business, and I learned all the all about the business and I loved it. I
really wanted to go into business here, but John didn't want to. He wanted this land.
Reb: So is your family still in Dallas, are they still in business there?
MLM: No, my mother and daddy are both deceased.
Reb: Did you say that you had some brothers there?
MLM: Well, Tony was in business for a long time and now he has been working for some
Italian fellow and I can't tell you his name. This man died not too long ago and he had adopted
two sons, one turned out to be a really nice farm boy, but not the other.
Reb: I?id you remain in Dallas after you married?
MLM: No, we came to Bryan and we lived for four years on Highway #21 on what is now the
Marino estate.
Reb: Do you remember any of the floods that were in the Brazos Valley during those years
before you were married? Did you live through any of the floods?
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MLM: No, we lived close to the woods, close to a creek and the water would get pretty close to
the house. In May it would rain a lot.
Reb: Would this be a regulaz seasonal occurrence?
MLM: Just a regulaz seasonal occurrence. Sometimes we had to leave the house and walk to
our grandpazents home.
Reb: Tell me again, please, the names of your two sons,
MLM: Vincent Samuel and John Gerard. They each live on each side of this farm. Vincent
works for Rheem (hot water heaters), and Johnnie works for Producer's Coop.
Reb: How many grandchildren do you have?
MLM: We have two and one on the way. Douglas J. and Nickolyn Diane. Brenda is Vincent's
wife and Christie is John's wife.
Reb: Which of the old Italian customs do you still observe?
MLM: I have had many St. Joseph's Altazs...six or better. Then the last couple of years I
haven't had one in our home, but I have been in chazge of two altars which were all my
responsibility and I felt that they were really my altars because I had to worry about everything
they needed to be done to set the altar up, to decorate it and everything. I have so many
pictures...about four albums full.
Reb: What are some other customs that you follow which were brought over from the old
country?
MLM: At Christmas we still bake sphengiuni, a double layered pizza. At Easter we bake
Pupa laovas (Easter baskets). My grandchildren wait for the Easter eggs.
Reb: What about home remedies?
MLM: Mother always used blessed shortening. When Father would come to bless the house
he always blessed the shortening, and she would often use it for snake bites, wasp bites .just
most anything. For cough syrup she would use honey and lemon.
Reb: What about poultices?
MLM: I don't remember her using any.
Reb: I know that your activities were primarily in connection with the church, and, of course,
that included baking, didn't it?
MLM: I don't know how many times a yeaz we bake..we bake three times a year plus our own
baking.
JR: Mary Lena has failed to mention the delicious cheese that she used to make from the milk
from her own cows.
MLM: That was ricotta cheese, but I was also making cassecavallo.
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Reb: Is that the ricotta that is pressed really tight while draining?
MLM: Yes.
JR: It was delicious. People came from Houston and Dallas to buy it.
MLM: It was made from fresh whole cow's milk.
Reb: Without giving away your secret recipe will you tell me whether you curdled the milk
while making the cheese?
MI,M: Yes, we used to use Junket tablets for curdling, but now we use Rennet tablets. When I
can find whole milk I still make the cheese.
Reb: Where can these tablets be found?
MLM: There is a store here on Highway #6...Joe Lampo's store usually has them.
Reb: I have looked for them whenever I wanted to make ricotta and am glad to know about his
store.
Do you bring the milk up to a warm temperature?
MLM: Well, you put the tablet in it and you stir and then you wait so many minutes, then you
stir the clabber. Then you pour hot water over it until it "gets together." Then if the weather is
cool I would make it one time but if the weather warmed up, I would make it twice. Then I
would let it sour, slice and then pour boiling water and it would be pretty like lasagne dough. I
would then shape it and put it into containers and keep it in the refrigerator so that when you
would get it out it would be pretty and smooth.
Reb: When my mother would make a similar cheese, we used to call it "singing" cheese,
because it would squeak when you took a bite of it. I remember that my dad would take it with a
big thick piece of French bread, then he would put butter on that and then a big slice of that
cheese.
MLM: I don't make homemade bread any more. As I would make the cheese, I would add mills
and let it come to a boiling point and pour vinegar and a little salt and I would make cottage
cheese. You have to use fresh whole milk, not homogenized, or it will come like cottage cheese.
I just don't like the bought cottage cheese, it just doesn't taste good.
JR: She also makes those delicious fig cookies, pignolati, and other breads for the St. Joseph
Altars.
Reb: If you have nothing further to add, Mrs. Marino, I want to ask your permission to use
this material in a book I am writing on the Italians of this area. I also want to thank you and your
husband for giving me your time and this wonderful information.
MLM: I guess its okay.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mr. John E. Marino (JM) with comments by his wife, Mary Lena Marino
(MLM) and Mrs. Luke Ruffino (Jobey) (JR)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: October 25, 1988
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Mr. Marino, what is your full name?
JM: John E. Marino. I don't have a middle name, only an initial.
Reb: Where were you born?
JM: I was born on the Marino Addition on Highway #21, September 22, 1909.
Reb: What were the names of your parents?
JM: My daddy was named Charlie and my mother was named Janie.
Reb: What was her maiden name?
JM: My mother was a Baggareda.
Reb: Can you tell me where they were born?
JM: They came from Italy, is all I know.
Reb: Did they come from Sicily?
JM: I think so.
Reb: Do you think they might have come from Corleone?
JM: I think that's where they came from. My daddy used to help them out and get them on a
ferry...and he had to loan them some money to come in. That's the way I believe my daddy
used to help all of these Italians.
Reb: Was he married to your mother when he came over?
JM: No, they were not married then.
MLM: Was she born here?
JM: Yes, she was born here.
Reb: What can you tell me about your family?
JM: I was so little that they would not mix with the young ones. They didn't do much talking
in front of us. I had an uncle who came from Italy. He was married and was a Frenchman. He
paid my daddy°s fare to come to Bryan so that he could help him work.
Reb: Was the uncle here already?
JM: He was a big wheel with the Italians and anybody who needed help would go to him.
He was living right there across the road from us, on Marino Road.
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Reb: Well, then he must have come over here at a pretty eazly date himself.
J1Vi: Oh, yes he did. His last name was Palozzo, Joe Palozzo and his wife, Mary. I believe
she was French. She could speak English, French, and Italian, too.
Reb: Did your mother and father marry here?
JM: Yes, they set up housekeeping on the home place on East Highway #21.
Reb: Do you have brothers and sisters yourself?
JM: I have a bunch of them We are nine boys and six girls. All from one mother and one
daddy.
Reb: What did your father do to support all of those children?
JM: Well, he fazmed and he had a (cotton) gin.
Reb: Where was the gin located?
JM: Right there where you turn off Highway #21 onto Tabor Road. My uncle had this gin
and he needed some help and that's why he sent for my daddy. He was my uncle Palozzo.
Reb: Tell me about your "growing up" days.
JM: I didn't know anything but hazd work.
Reb: Were you able to go to school?
MLM: He went a little more than I did.
JM: We went to school at Prospect. It was about three miles away and we had to walk from
our house to the school and back home.
Reb: What do you remember about that school? Was it a one-room schoolhouse?
JM: Yes, it was aone-room schoolhouse with one teacher and later when they had two
teachers they made the schoolhouse a little lazger. Then they were able to have a first grade,
then a second grade and then a third grade. It was rough. We used to play ball and the English
(Americans) wouldn't associate with us Italians so we kept to ourselves. But on Saturdays the
older boys would have a fist fight. They did this on Friday evenings because there was no
school the next day.
Reb: What did the girls like to do at school? What games did they play?
JM: The Italian girls stayed separated from the American girls, who felt that the Italians were
getting all of the boyfriends.
Reb: How long did you go to that school?
JM: About four or five years. After that I didn't go anywhere else. I had to start working at
the gin, hauling wood. We had people to cut a hundred cords of wood and we had to haul it
with a wagon and team at that time. Then when it (business) got better we bought us a Model
A truck and we could haul that wood twice as fast as we could with a wagon. Of course, we
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had to go so far up to the railroad. We didn't have a wood patch so we had to buy the wood
and that was the closest to us.
-: Reb: When you bought this wood, would you have to cut it7
JNi: No, we bought it already cut. All we had to do was drive the wagon right close to it to
load and we'd leave in the morning and it would be about dazk before we'd get home. It was
about ten to twelve miles and with a team and wagon..it was very slow.
Reb: Did you do this kind of work up until you and Mary Lena married?
JM: Oh, no I think I had quit before.
MLM: Well, he practically ran that gin. When he would stop to do business or when
something would break down the gin would stop. The rest (of the workers) didn't know what
to do with it.
JM: We had to work at nighttime and then we would start ginning about daylight and we
wouldn't quit until we had cleaned up that yard
Reb: What was that gin called?
JM: The Marino Gin.
Reb: Is it still standing?
JM: No. It was torn down not long ago...after your daddy (MI.M's daddy) passed away,
maybe in the '60s because it burned. We still had some machines and some cotton in there and
then one of my oldest brothers sold some of the junk and the people went up there to pickup
their stuff and they set it on fire. They were using a torch or something to cut the iron and that
gin caught on fire. We didn't have any insurance.
Reb: Was it a wooden building?
~:~-; JM: The baler was wooden and it had a wooden floor. That think went up like a streak of
...lightening.
Reb: How long would you say that the gin lasted, about how many years?
MLM: I think he was in business for about twenty-four yeazs. He took over for his daddy
when he was eighteen years old and his brother and sisters. He practically raised those little
ones. The older brothers left home because there were so many children....fifteen. Joe, Ben,
Mike, Sam all left home and left him with the responsibility.
Reb: What do you remember about your mother's cooking?
JM: She was a good cook. She would fry potatoes and cook spaghetti. My wife is as good a -.
cook as my mother.
Reb: Did your mother make homemade tomato paste?
MLM: My mother did and I still do, but I don°t sun dry it. I cook it in the microwave.
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JM: Well, you could have asciato? It's tomato paste. You put it on a wooden board and you
work it and you let the sun dry it out and stir back and forth.
Reb: The sun dried tomato paste seems to be more tart and tends to make ones gums itch if
you eat it in concentrated form.
JR: John, what do you know about the game played on the lawn called bocci?
JNi: On Sunday, you see, all the Italian people in the neighborhood used to come out and
play bocci.. All the Italians from ten to twelve miles around would get together to play. We
would go to church in the morning and Mass would be over about eleven or eleven-thirty. We
would clean up a spot in the yard and play bocci. They (the women) would play cards. We
used to put a nickel on top of one ball or there would twenty cents and they you would roll
your ball, whoever got closer to that ball without knocking off the money would play first. At
times they would play partners.
Reb: Now, you and Mary Lena have two children: two boys and they live on either side of
you and they are farming, as well, and they also have jobs in town, is that correct?
MLM: John does, part of the cows are his, but Vincent doesn't farm at all.
Reb: What do you raise, primarily?
JM: We raise grain, primarily. We used to raise corn, sorghum and then we would cut and
bale it for livestock feed so that's the way we take care of the cows during the wintertime.
Reb: I3o you raise any cotton?
JM: No, we quit since our gin burned up, we don°t anymore.
MLM: You worked in the "Bottoms."
JM: I got homesick about cotton and I went over to the Scanmardos (place).
Reb: So, you went to work for the Scarmardos then?
JM: Yes and the Variscos and the Salvatos. Mostly, I worked for the Salvatos, they turned
over the whole gin to me to run ite
Reb: And how long did you do that?
JM: After I was married, I didn't have any money.
MLM: The kids would help me truck farm and they would help me gather. I stayed there for
about fourteen years and they (sons) helped us and he'd go to work at the gin. All total he
worked about 30 years.
Reb: Well, are you retired now or do you still actively farm?
MLM: He's retired.
JM: I'm tired but I couldn°t stay without work. We got a hundred head of cattle out here.
MLM: We have 170 acres and we gave each boy an acre apiece.
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JM: They have built a house and can do whatever they want with it (the land).
Reb: Are there any special customs which you family has followed throughout the yeass?
~~ JM: My mother used to go (to the church) and help..she died so young. She got married
when she was twelve or thirteen years old and she started having kids, fifteen, I believe she
lost two or three.
MLM: She died at forty-three.
JM: She was a really nice lady and she loved all of her kids like an old setting hen.
Reb: Well, she enjoyed doing what most of the Italian mothers did. They loved their church,
they loved their families, they loved to work at the church and to do their cooking and things
such as that.
JM: Well, she didn't go to church because, at that time, they had to go in a buggy or wagon
and it was too faz, really not that faz, but the road was so rough and she was afraid of them
kids. They were just like quail, when one of them would fly they would all fly.
Reb: What would happen when you needed a doctor?
JM: Well, my aunt was a neighbor out there and she just about brought all the girls and boys
(into the world). My uncle and aunt had a telephone just across the road from us. They were
just about the only ones out there who had a phone. They had a doctor who would come and
deliver babies.
Reb: Before the telephones did you call midwives? Was you aunt a midwife?
JM: I had a buggy or a wagon and we had to go get them, sometimes, they would be two to
three miles, they wouldn't be faz. They would come there until the baby was born.
Reb: Is there anything else you would like to add?
JM: We do have two oil wells on the farm.
Reb: How long have those been here?
MLM: They started producing in May 1983.
JM: We used to raise a little bit of cotton and then grain for feed for the cows.
MLM: We used to raise a lot of corn and we had a grinder, but only for feed.
Reb: What about the cottonseed, did you use that?
JM: We couldn't sell that cottonseed, but you couldn't do anything with it. They used to
have a mill that they would make oil out of it and we used to sell a truckload or a wagon load of
it.
Reb: I suppose this is considered dry land farming out here? And you didn't count on the
rain?
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JM: Yes. But it turned out pretty good, we made a good living out of it. Mary Lena was
hooked on boys, we never had any girls.
MLM: Those boys never got any whippings. I never had to call them to go to school and I
never had to call them to go to church. Up until today, I don°t think they have missed in I can°t
tell you how long.
Reb: Well, I think that°s wonderful, absolutely. Well, John, do you rrund if I use some of
things that you have told me this afternoon to put into a book that I am writing about the
Italians? I would also like to put a copy of this interview into the Archives of the University
Library.
MLM & JM: I think its wonderful.
Reb: Well, I just feel that there is a lot of heritage that, little by little, will be forgotten. One
way that the young people will be reminded of it and the young students who are not Italians,
who go to the Archives to learn about the families who have lived here, will be to read these
transcripts.
JM: It seems to me its like a dream. We ran into a lot of storms when we didn't have money
for this or that, but now we are more comfortable.
Reb: This is as it should be. At your age you should be able to relax and be more comfortable
and not to have to work so hard. So you must count your blessings..as we all do.
JM: I am taking a little rest. Of course Johnny takes care of the cows and vaccinates them
and sprays them and all of that.
MLM: He took animal science at the University for about two years and then trained and
went into agriculture and got a certificate for teaching agriculture. You never know when he
might need to fall back on that. We've got the calves all together with Johnny and Vincent
doesn't have anything to do with them. He does help us a little bitr He's a business man and
we are luck to have him. We try to keep Johnny from working so hard, but he loves it.
Reb: Well, thank you both so much.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Rosalie Scarmardo (RS)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 2, 1989
Bryan, Texas
Reb: What is your full name?
RS: Rosalie LaBarba Scarmardo.
Reb: Where were you born?
RS: I was born in Kansas City, Missouri, February 11, 1921.
Reb: Who were your parents?
RS: Frank LaBarba and Lillian Vittorino.
Reb: Where were they born?
RS: My father was born in Campofelici (Italia) in Sicily. My grandmother was also born in the
same town. My mother was born in Kansas City, Missouri. After my mother died my daddy
and I moved to Dallas and I met my husband and married him. He was from this area, in fact, he
was a farmer in Burleson County and the church they attended was San Salvador Mission which
is a mission of St. Anthony Church in Bryan. It is the national church for the Italians.
Reb: What do you mean when you say it is the national church for the Italians?
RS: Bryan is made up of national churches. I think this is the only city in the diocese, and
might be in the whole U.S. that still has national churches. St. Theresa is for the Mexicans.
These churches were actually originated for the people that spoke these languages but that no
longer pertains to the people now because everyone speaks English, but St. Theresa was for the
Mexicans, St. Joseph was for the Germans, Czechs and the Polish and St. Anthony (Church)
was for the Italians. Those were the only churches they had here in the beginning.
Reb: So what makes them national is that they were the only churches, at that time, designated
for those particular ethnic groups.
RS: That's right.
Reb: Can you tell me about when your father came to the United States? Did he come with his
parents?
RS: No, he came alone and he was sixteen years old, he had an uncle and aunt who lived in the
United States. They lived in Kansas City and he landed in New York (City) and I believe he said
that when he landed he had a loaf of bread and a few cents on him. I never did get to talk to him
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too much about Ellis Island, but I remember his saying something about going through Ellis
Island with a group of immigrants there.
Reb: When?
RS: He came in about 1913 or 1914.
Reb: He came in through New York City then?
RS: Yes.
Reb: What do you recall hearing him say about his growing up in Sicily, before coming to the
U.S? What memories do you have of stories he might have told you?
RS: His stories always pertained to the farnung part of it (their lives). Times were real hard
because whenever they raised any crops of any kind the government got so much of it and they
were left with practically nothing. They all lived in the city and they would go out to the country
to do their farming. He talked about his teacher, whom they called professore. He was very
strict with them, and I think he attended school up to the fifth grade, which, I think was about all
they went to at that time. Afterwards, that they all had to go to work, I think. They had the
obligation that when they reached a certain age they had to go into the military service.
Reb: Do you recall for how long....two years?
RS: I can't remember whether it was for two or three years. I remember that one of my uncles
went. and I think most of them were sent down to Africa. Other than that he moved to the States
when he was sixteen. I guess he didn°t have too many memories of then.
Reb: Well, you know that Somalia is located on the northern part of Africa and there is still a
large settlement of Italians there.
RS: I seem to recall hearing them speaking about Tunisia and Ethiopia.
Reb: Ethiopia is next to Somalia.
RS: Seems to me those were the areas where they used to serve. In fact, during World War II
one of my uncles was taken prisoner down there.
Reb: Did you father come over by himself on the ship?
RS: Yes, and he said he was really seasick for a few days, I remember that.
Reb: Do you remember anything else about his trip over?
RS: No, no more than that he had this large family and about a year or two later his brother
came over to join him. He had a lot of family in Kansas City.
Reb: When did he move to the Brazos Valley?
RS: My father moved to Dallas in 1935. My mother had died at childbirth at the age of 33 and I
had an older sister and a younger brother and I was the only one who came to Dallas with him
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and he went into the grocery business during that time which was during the Depression. About
a year later he married a native of Bryan. Her name was Frances Canavespe. I met my husband
when I came down (to Bryan). At the time I married, Father Basil Bravi was the pastor and he
used to give the sermon on the last seven words of Christ and he would give it in Italian. I
couldn't understand his Italian because he was from Italy and the only dialect I was used to was
Sicilian, but I remember looking around and everyone would be crying, his sermons were
always so close to their hearts.
Reb: And this was in the Sicilian dialect?
RS: It wasn't in the Sicilian dialect, it was in the Italian dialect. Then he would turn around and
give the same sermon in English and he spoke such broken English and it was hard forme to
understand. People had to have a lot of faith, especially, those who didn't understand Italian,
but they said he was such a good speaker that this church in New York would send for him
every year during Lent. He would go up there and give the Lenten retreat. He would stay up
there all during Lent and he would bring that money (from the retreat) back- and give it to St.
Anthony's Church. He would give it to the church itself trying to pay off the debt because, the
old St. Anthony's, from what I understand since this happened before I moved here, had burned
down and they had to build a new parish church in 1927.
Reb: When your father made his move, at the age of sixteen, did he speak any English at all?
RS: No.
Reb: Did he find it difficult to learn English and to become accustomed to ways of living in the
United States?
RS: Well, it was to a certain extent. I know he studied hard to get his citizenship papers. At
those times in the larger cities you could always find areas where all the ethnic people would
gather. I think all of the Italians in Kansas City lived in the north end of the city, so this was
probably where he was living at that time with his aunt and uncle. What I regret, and I remember
this while I was growing up, telling the older people when they were speaking Italian that the
younger generation would speak English because they were in America now. And by doing so
and trying to force the older ones to speak English we lost the language along the way by not
being able to do it. I regret that I didn't learn it more fluently and that my children don't speak it
all.
Reb: Yes, I think that's the feeling of most of the people who are of Italian heritage. So, after
your father reached the fifth grade did he acquire any more education after amving in the States
or did he go right to work then? -
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RS: He went right to work. I think he worked on the railroad, he did work in the coal mines,
and I think he worked for the stockyards. Later he went into business for himself by the time he
was twenty-three or twenty-four years old, because this was a big dream of all of them, that they
would go into business for themselves.
Reb: And what kind of business was he in?
RS: At that time, I think he opened a saloon and it was down there around the stockyards and,
in fact, I have a picture of him in there, and I gave it to my grandson. It had all file floors, and
looked like something you would see in the 1890s. It had a beautiful hand carved bar in there. I
barely remember. I do remember going down and getting, he said, a lemon soda water, but from
what I can remember now it tasted more like 7-Up or something but it was something new that
we weren't used to.
Reb: When did he come to Dallas?
RS: In 1935. After arriving in Dallas he went into the grocery business.
Reb: Do you know a Tony LaBarba there in Dallas with Texas Produce Company?
R5: It was not Tony, it was James.
Reb: He was a good friend of my uncles who was with Cabell's Ice Cream for years in Dallas.
RS: They have the American Wine Company. They have branched out into industrial foods.
Tony LaBarba also had a grocery store. He was on San Jacinto Street.
Reb: So you were in Dallas with your dad and you came to visit your step-grandparents in
Bryan?
R5: In those days all the young men would stand outside the church talking and smoking and
watching everybody go in. My husband said he was with a group of boys and he saw me
walldng in, and in a small town like this (Bryan) they realized that I was a stranger and they all
wanted to know who I was. And my husband made up his mind that he was going to find out
because the woman I was with, Mrs. Canavespe, had a son who was married to his cousin. So
he had a way of finding out and he came to Dallas.
Reb: To meet you?
R5: Yes, so that's how I found out and that's how I eventually met lum.
Reb: Now, let's back up a little bit to those churches we were talking about earlier. You were
talking about San Salvador Church and how it got started and the people who went there. How
was it built and by whom?
RS: It was built by the men who lived out there in the Brazos bottoms. From what I can
understand they said the priest would come out there occasionally and they would have Mass on
one of the porches or in one of the homes and, one day, I think they dropped the Host, or
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something happened and one of the girls said that she dreamed that the Blessed Mother told her
that they needed to build a church and where they needed to build it. At that time they called that
Parker's Quarter. Mrs. Parker had given them an acre of ground for the church with the
stipulation that as long as it was used as a church we could keep it, but if it was ever
discontinued the land would revert back to the estate.
Reb: Now, was that church was built in the early 1900s?
RS: That sounds right. She claimed she had a vision one day while she was out picking cotton
or something.
Reb: Who is she?
RS: Her name was Vita Scarmardo. Each farmer gave the yield from eight to two ten rows of
cotton. At harvest time these rows were harvested first.
Reb: And that church has been active ever since, but it didn't have its own priest, did it?
RS: No, it didn't. The priest would come out from Bryan and sometimes they would have to
pull them out, the roads were so bad when it rained. But when I married in 1938, Mass would
be celebrated once a month at San Salvador Church, which is a mission of St. Anthony's in
Bryan.
Reb:. As a rule, did the people (from Steele's Store) try to go into Bryan or was transportation
too difficult?
RS: No, the only time they came into Bryan was when it was for a wedding, funeral or a feast
day of some kind. Otherwise, they stayed out there and that's the church they went to...in fact,
what I couldn't get over they had also established a small mission across the river at Steele's
Store where they would go and have Mass once a month. Once a month it would be in the
"Bottoms" and once a month it would be at Steele's Store.
Reb: Where would that little mission be?
RS: There used to be a high school at Steele's Store, which was atwo-story building. The little
mission church was actually a small building located to one side of the the larger building.
Reb: Is that the two-story building that is still there?
RS: Yes. I don°t know when either of the two buildings were built. I know that the larger one
was there when I married. I recall that every Saturday night they had a dance somewhere out
there and occasionally they would have one at this school (looking at recent picture of Steele's
Store school) upstairs. The schoolrooms were all downstairs and the auditorium was upstairs
and that's where they would have the dances. And they would have someone who played a
guitar, violin or something, not any name bands, but we would have some real good times
dancing.
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Reb: What do you remember hearing about the early floods?
RS: I remember my father-in-law saying that when they had that large flood when the levee
broke he was on a horse or mule and was trying to get home to his wife and it was like a high
wall of water that was following him up this road and he got as far as his sister's house and they
climbed up on the roof of the house. I remember hearing that a baby had been born on one of
those roofs. I remember them saying Burleson County is higher and Burleson County had the
levee. Brazos County was lower and the river was high and the water was coming out and
covering all of Brazos County....the farmland in Brazos County...and so there were some men
on the other side who got their shotguns and started shooting at the levee and they shot at the
levee until they got it to break. So much ground was lost because the so mud slid from Burleson
County over to Brazos County.
Reb: Now, let's talk about early customs. Since your father came over (to the U.S.) at an early
age, I wonder if he remembered very many of the customs celebrated in Sicily other than those
you have akeady mentioned, some of which might still be followed today. I know the St.
Joseph's Altars were brought over to this area by the people from Sicily and we're still following
that tradition in the church.
RS: Where he came from the feast of Santa Lucia was a big feast day. The story goes that the
people were starving during a famine in Sicily. A ship happened to arrive on her feast day with
some wheat and they took this wheat and brought it home and all that they could do was just to
boil it. They didn't have anything else and were trying to get food into them (people) especially
the children. And I do remember in those days we couldn°t eat bread, that was another thing, in
fact I saw one of the kids I grew up with not long ago and she said she still doesn't eat bread on
that day. Traditionally, a wheat mixture, called cuchia, is boiled and eaten on that day.
Actually wheat in Italian is frumento and where they get cuchia from I don't know.
After the cuchia is boiled it is eaten with honey or some other sweetener. This is one of the
customs the people here follow every year for St. Lucy's Day.
Reb: What about medicines, herbal medicines or home remedies?
R5: These were brought over from the "old country," too. If a child was vomiting a lot or
running a high fever and they couldn't find any other reason they would claim that the child had
gotten scared and probably had worms. They would have the older people to come over. The
reason that I know this is because they would do this to me a million times. They would say
prayers while they were touching your stomach and they would claim that everything was all
right.
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Another form of that, which I found out about after I married, came from another village in
Italy. They called it "cutting worms." They would get string and measure it and all the time they
were measuring this long string and folding it they were saying prayers. And when they were
through the string was folded down about and inch or two. They would take the scissors and cut
the strings and drop them into a bowl of water and, if they had worms, the threads would wiggle
and if they didn't they would just lay there. I have really seen this happen.
Another thing they would do for you if they thought you were having trouble with them
(worms), they would make a necklace out of gazlic and put it on you. I had to weaz one of
those.
Reb: For how long did you have to wear it?
RS: Until the doggone gazlic dried up.
Reb: Would this be fresh gazlic?
R5: Yes. They would get a needle and thread right through the gazlic pods. Another thing they
would do would be to get a wool sock and pour hot salt in it and put it on your throat for a sore
throat and that would ease it.
My grandpa was a sort of chiropractor because they did have a few people who would do
massages. If you had sprained your ankle or hurt your back you would go to one of these
people, usually men, and they would massage. I, also, remember one of them saying whenever
they did that if you put your thumb over the area that you complained about hurting, it might not
be that azea but azound somewhere you could fee the muscle sort of jump when you ran your
thumb over it. Sometimes for the back, they would get a silver quarter or half dollaz and put it in
a piece of linen, then they would tie it and form a sort of wick on top. The flat side would then
be placed on the affected and the wick set it on fire. A glass would be inverted on top of flame,
resting on the skin. The heat would cause a suction and it would raise the skin underneath. The
glass would be gently moved over the skin area.
Another thing I saw used were leeches. My grandpa kept leeches, since he was one those
persons doing massage. He always kept them in case someone came in with a blood clot from a
bruise. He would put a leech on it and the leech would go right up to where the blood clot was
and would suck that blood clot out.
Reb: This treatment goes way back because they used leeches a long time ago.
RS: And I remember getting them out of the jaz and putting them on my arm and watching themt
crawl, they don't bite and they don°t bother you at all. My grandpa would get all over me.
Reb: When you say grandpa, whose father was he?
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R5: He was my mother°s father, I never did meet my daddy's people, no more than the uncle
who came over from Italy. This was my grandpa, John Vittorino, and they did all of these old
remedies. And there was always good old Vick's Salve that they used and aspirin.
Reb: Did they use eucalyptus leaves or camphor leaves?
RS: I remember them getting some leaves, but as a child I didn't pay much attention to what
they were getting up.
Reb: What was the feeling about the malocchio? (Evil eye).
RS: Oh, yes, they had that, too. I had forgotten about that. On a baby, especially if you had a
beautiful little old baby, they would pin a medal on this baby so that the baby wouldn't get what
they called the malocchio because they believed that a person could look at you and, perhaps,
cast a spell on you.
Reb: They believed it would take the spirit from the child, or the soul from the child.
RS: Yes, I remember they would always pin a red ribbon or something on them.
Reb: I remember that whenever you went to a child or a baby and you would say to it how
sweet or how beautiful that child is your were always very careful to say, °'God Bless You,"
afterwards.
Reb: Tell me something about when you and your husband were married. Did you marry and
move to Steele°s Store to live?
RS: No, we moved to Burleson County. We married at St. Anthony's in Bryan on February
27, 1938. My birthday was on the 11th and I was seventeen. Born and raised in the large city, I
moved to the country without plumbing and the first few months the house was wired but we
had not electricity connected up yet, no refrigeration.
Reb: What was the date of this?
R5: In 1938. About six months after we married the Rural Electrification (Administration) was
hooked up to the farmhouse. I had no running water in the house, no bathroom, no bathtub.
My husband would go to his mother's, she had a bathtub. She lived across from us. He°d go
there and take a bath. Oh, yes, I had a coal oil stove, something I had never had in my life, I
was used to gas. We had a wood heater and I was used to central heat, having grown up in the
mid-part of the U.S. The only thing I can say is that thank God I was young enough to take it in
my stride. It was a big change, it was more like a big adventure, I guess. I wasn't old enough
to realize what I was doing, probably, but by doing this, what we made we made together and
stuck together.
Reb: So what business was your husband in?
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R5: He was a farmer and a rancher and he was very, very good. He loved his farm, he loved
his land.
Reb: And lus name was William?
RS: His Italian name was Vito and they called him Will.
Reb: When was he born?
RS: September 10, 1912. He was a very, very good farmer.
Reb: What did you raise?
RS: We raised cotton, grain, and cattle. We were fortunate enough, about two months after we
married, we bought our first property, which was fifty acres of land and, because I was a minor,
he had to sign as my guardian, when we signed the papers on the land.
RS: We didn't have a car, my father-in-law had a car. My husband plowed with mules, at that
time, and I would bring him his breakfast out in the field. That was before we had two children.
I wouldn't take anything for it because it gave us so many memories and the people were a lot
closer. -We did not have T.V. and we played "forty-two," which I learned to play after I married
and we played dominos. Finally, I made up my mind that if he was going to play poker I was
going to learn how to play poker, too. On days when it rained and they couldn't work out in the
field, after they would feed the animals, they would come back and they'd all get together,
usually at our house, and we'd play "penny poker" all day long and I would feed them what we
had in the house. I canned, I was a nice little country wife. I learned how to can,... we had
fresh vegetables. I tell you it was a lot better living out there than it was in the big city during the
depression. The kids say they all have wonderful memories. I don't regret one bit raising my
children out there.
Reb: So, your children were all born out there? Will you give me the names of your children
and their birthdates?
RS: Sara Francis is the oldest one...she's married to Lee Fazzino. Steve was born December
30, 1941, and on February 1, 1951 the second son was born; William, Jr. was born November
7, 1952 and Lillian was born December 29, 1953. I have thirteen grandchildren and five great-
. grandchildren. They all live in Texas.
Reb: The house that you lived in when you first marred, is it still standing?
RS: Yes, farmhands are living in it now. It was three rooms: two huge rooms and the back
room was like six feet by fourteen feet and that was the kitchen. For my first anniversary my
husband built me a kitchen cabinet in there and brought water to the house.
Reb: Plumbed it in?
RS: Yes.
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Reb: How wonderful! Is that when you had your first bathroom facility put in?
RS: No, we didn't. We still didn't have a bathroom. We didn't get the bathroom until a lot
later, but pretty good memories.
Reb: Now when you look at these pictures that I have of Steele's Store, tell me what you
recall.
RS: Joe Scarmardo had a grocery store and he had an outdoor platform. It was just a dance
floor with some benches around the sides of it.
Reb: Was this grocery store in Steele's Store?
RS: No, this one I am talking about was in Burleson County. Every Saturday night we had a
dance up there and all of us would go and they would bring their children and all.
Reb: It was a family affair?
RS: Yes, everything was a family affair then, there were no such things as baby-sitters. You
had a baby you just took the babies with you and there was always someone there to hold your
baby and let you dance. And, naturally, everybody went with their daughters because daughters
weren't allowed to go by themselves. We had good times out there, we were always doing
something and everybody pitched in when we had the big barbecues to raise money. I remember
I was in a wedding when my daughter was about two months old and the reception was held on
a platform in Burleson County and I brought her to the wedding in her baby basket.
Reb: What can you tell me about Steele°s Store? I guess that was no longer in existence when
you married?
RS: Yes, Steele°s Store was Steele's Store. They had plenty of families living there.
Reb: I have this marked as Steele's Store, is that right? (Referring to a picture)
RS: This is around the gin and this is on the old highway. This use to be a general store there.
This was a gin and across from that was a jail.
Reb: I think we've marked at Steele's Store.
RS: I think that's what they used to call Mooring. This used to be a big general store here and
then they had living quarters up there.
Reb: But do you know whose general store it was?
RS: I think it was the Moorings...wait...it's either Astin or Mooring. Tony Varisco could tell
you about that.
Reb: What about this old gin. Your husband utilized that, didn't he?
RS: No, we had one in Burleson County. In fact, we had two and the way it was...
Reb: Well, were you in Burleson County?
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RS: I was in Burleson County, I wasn't in Steele's Store. Now, my son-in-law Lee lives in
Steele's Store, he's been there all of his life. In Burleson County, the farm we bought with a lot
of acreage we bought from Milton Fountain and, at the time I married, it was a huge plantation of
about two or three thousand acres. And the pictures of the old south with all the houses there
that the slaves lived in, the tenant shacks, they all lived in these and they had this gin on there
and, from what I understand, he had this huge general store which I can remember seeing...this
was the J.M. Fountain plantation. the people -tenants or farmhands that were farming would get
their food from him all year long and then when they got ready to do their crops they would have
to gin their cotton there. They would have to take what he gave them for it, so the poor fellows
were never out of debt. Therefore, they could never afford to move anywhere because they were
indebted to their owner.
Reb: What was the relationship between the Italian farmers and the local people. They were
surrounded by other Italian families. Was their contact with other ethnic groups a very close
one?
RS: They were looked down on.
Reb: By any one particular ethnic group or non-Italians?
RS: Yes, by all the other ethnic groups.
Reb: Was that because of a lack of education?
RS: Yes, not really knowing the people
RS: And another thing, I remember, the boys couldn't take the car, whoever was old enough
to drive, couldn't take the family car and go anywhere. I remember hearing some of them talking
about how they slipped out of the bedroom windows. These were cousins talking and they had
--•~-all made a pact and they got the old Model-T (Ford) and pushed it up the road so they wouldn't
hear the motor when they got ready to leave.
Reb: Do you recall hearing anything about Pitt's Ferry on the Brazos River?
RS: Yes, it was up there at Pitt's Bridge.
Reb: Where would that be located?
RS: Smetana. I think Smetana was back there and I think it was part of Pitt's Bridge. In fact, I
think the pilings are still there. I remember seeing them not long ago and wondering about them.
When the flood came and took the bridge with it they had to establish a ferry in order to take the
people across the river. The Pitt's Bridge was, I think, around Smetana and about two miles
down that Highway #50, you take a left there. Coming from Bryan, you come down Highway =-
#21.
Reb: Would you come to Smetana and take a left?
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R5: Not at Smetana, at Smetana you would take a left where the SPJST Hall is, it goes back in
there. How far back it goes in there now I don't know. They have changed a lot of those roads,
now you can go almost to the river in Burleson County where the pilings were and that's where
the old Pitt°s Bridge was located
Reb: Just to cross the Brazos River. Are you familiar with the Saladiner farm? I guess it is out
in Steele's Store. Some reference was made earlier about an old shotgun house on the Saladiner
farm. Is a shotgun house the same as what is known as the dog run house where they have a
hall down the middle and rooms on either side?
RS: No, a shotgun is one room behind the other.
Reb: You have to go through one room to get to the next one....there's no skirting the room?
R5: Yes. The only one I can think of similar to that is the old Lazarone house around Mumford
on the other side of Steele's Store. It's on the right hand side, it is a big house. Another thing
some of them had a hall down the back end of them or down the front of it, where you could go
into each room.
Reb: Anything else you can think of that you would like for me to record this afternoon
regarding all of this we having been discussing?
RS: Yes, I can tell you one thing, I couldn't get used to the first time I went to church with my
husband, after we married The men stayed outside and talked and the women would go on into
church. When he came in he didn't sit with me he sat on the other side and then I noticed all the
women sat on the left hand side of the church and all the men sat on the right.
Reb: Was this for the children as well as for the adults?
RS: For the adults and the children ran back and forth which I couldn't understand. And that
was one thing I was not going to conform to because we didn't do it where I grew up.
Reb: Tell me something about your wedding. Was your wedding there?
R5: No, we got married in Bryan at St. Anthony's. He picked me up about eight o°clock in the
morning and the whole wedding party went down to the photographer and we took our wedding
pictures. This was prior to the wedding. We took our group pictures and all the pictures we
were going to take and then we proceeded to the church.
Reb: Do you remember who the photographer was at that time?
RS: Yes, it was John Bomanski. I think he had the Van Dyke studio. Then we went on to
church and then we had our wedding. It was on a Sunday and it was at Mass.
Reb: That is the present church?
RS: Yes, and at that time it was the Sunday before Lent and we knelt all through the whole
wedding, through the whole Mass, the vows we took and everything. And while he was reading
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all the rules and regulations of Lent, I thought it would never end, and the thought ran through
my mind as to whether I was doing the right thing. Dear God, what am I getting into...all of a
sudden I realized I had to take care of this man kneeling next to me. After that we went to our
reception which was held at what they called the Avalon Nightclub out in Burleson County, right
across the river because Brazos County was dry. They served a barbecue dinner to everybody
and we had a dance. I don't know whether they were the Melody Masters, but the music was
real good. I was used to these big orchestras and here this was changing over to country music.
But it was good music, I remember I had a wedding cake but I don't know what it looked like.
And everybody at the wedding was practically strange to me, but the ones who had come down
from Dallas. And then we left on our honeymoon.
Reb: Were there some customs that they followed like the "shivazee?"
RS: Before I married their weddings used to last three days and three nights. And they used to
dance and they had food for everybody all of the time, because my father-in-law said he used to
do the cooking for them.
Reb: Now, were these the Italian weddings:
RS: These were the Italian weddings.
Reb: Which day of the three days would the marriage ceremony take place?
RS: I think the marriage took place the first day, but I remember them talking about them
lasting two and three days. They would go all night long. But the time I married, which was
really something, we attended weddings and we used to get invitations from all these people and
we knew all these people from Mazlin, Waco, High Bank, Hearne, Stafford, Houston, and
Navasota We attended all these weddings, and these people were invited to the same weddings
we went to, and we knew everybody. Now it is so much different.
Before I married, when I came down for the Holy Thursday services and all these men came
down the aisle, they were dressed in white. They were similar to albs.Oh, another thing they did
for Holy Thursday was that, while the blessed Sacrament was exposed, people would sit in
church all night long, as if they were attending a Wake. During the night no less than two of the
men would keep vigil in the church while the others slept in the rectory. Those persons attending
the vigil, both men and women, would sing hymns accappella, without music. These were sung
in Italian. When Good. Friday arrived they would all go home.
Father Bravi would wash the feet of those men who took the roles of the Apostles. Now this is
before Vatican II. And it was an honor to be picked to be an Apostle.
Reb: Are there any copies anywhere of these early hymns, or the music for them?
RS: Sam Lampo might remember some of them.
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Reb: I am going to transcribe these tapes and I'll give you a copy of this tape and the
transcription. I would like your pemussion to put a copy of this tape and the transcription into the
archives at Texas A&M University since they do not have anything on the oral history of the
Italians, except for one tape which was done by Mr. Lampo quite some time back. It is not a
complete tape and I would like to see that there is a collection put there for students who come
later to study this same type of thing. And I would like your permission to put some of this
material later into a book on a history of the Italians of Brazos County. And I thank you very
much.
RS: Yes.
Additional Comments:
RS: Grandma was talking about that when she was a little girl in Italy and mention was made
about how everybody (in the congregation) in church would sing and some of them (the
parishioners) didn't like the changes that were made. She said, "Well, we did it in Italy when I
was growing up." And this was something we didn't even know.
Reb: Then these changes reflect the way things used to be (in the church).
RS: They are going back and she said also they didn't even have pews, they just went in and
stood or knelt on the hard ground. It was so funny because everyone was talking about all of
this and she was so calm and said, "Why we did that in Italy." And she was thirteen when she
left there.
Also, they had anunals downstairs and they lived upstairs.
Reb: In the houses there in Sicily?
RS: Yes, when my cousin came back, he had gone to visit while he was in the service over
there and he showed me a movie, a film, he had taken over there where the horse was downstairs
looking out of the window and the people were living upstairs. And I think the reason they did
that was because they didn°t have any place to leave them.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
.::.,,..Interview with: Mrs. Rosie Patranella Shimen (RS) with comments by Bonnie Patranella
Grizzaffi (BG),
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 20, 1990
Bryan, Texas
('There was a problem with the tape transcription at the very beginning. The following
information was obtained from Mrs. Shimen)
Mrs. Shimen was born 8 Apri11896 in Bryan, Texas. Her father's name was Luke Patranella
and her mother's name was Bonnie Ruffino.
Reb: Where was your father born?
RS: Corleone, Sicily.
Reb: And your mother?
RS: Corleone, Sicily.
Reb: What was your father's birthdate?
RS: September 5, 1851.
Reb: When did they come to the United States?
R5: I don't know.
Reb: Were they married when they came to the United States?
R5: No. There were married here. Her mother died when she was very young in November
8, 1890.
Reb: When they came to the United States, did they come in through the Port of New
~. Orleans?
RS: Yes.
Reb: When they came to the United States did they come right to Bryan.
R5: Well, I guess. I'm not sure.
BG: Not in town but in the country.
Reb: What was that called out there and what kind of work did your father do?
BG: They used to call it Sugar Hill.
R5: He was a farmer and he raised cotton.
Reb: How large a family did you have?
RS: With his first wife he had three children.
Reb: And then your father married again? Then the second wife was your mother?
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BG: No, she was a child of the first marriage. The second marriage was to Mary Marino.
Reb: How many children did they have?
R5: Seven children.
Reb: Did you live in the city or in the country?
BG: When her mother died her uncle and aunt raised her in Dickinson, Texas.
Reb: About how old were you when you went to Dickinson?
RS: About eleven or twelve years old.
BG: Aunt Rosie, when you came back you were that old but when you went there how old
were you went to Dickinson.
RS: I only stayed in Dickinson for about two years. I was raised in Bryan and my uncle,
who raised me, moved to Houston. He stayed there about a few months then he went to
Dickinson.
Reb: Do you still have relatives in Dickinson?
RS: No more.
Reb: What was the name of the uncle who raised your?
RS: My daddy's brother, Nick Patranella.
Reb: What can you tell me about when you were growing up out in the Bryan area? What are
some of the things you did when you were a young girl? Did you help with the cooking and
the housework? Did you do a lot of cooking?
RS: No.
Reb: Did you mother do all of the cooking?
RS: Yes. (I) helped with everything...including chopping cotton.
Reb: Do you remember some of the food your mother liked to fix? I'm sure she did the
Italian cooking, but what kind of food did you like best of all?
RS: A long time ago we used to have cornbread in the morning, fried potatoes at night and
sometimes cornbread again and lots of time spaghetti.
Reb: Did you mother make her own spaghetti?
R5: Yes, she used to.
Reb: Did you help her?
RS: Yes.
Reb: Tell me something about how you made the spaghetti. Did you have to mix it all with
your hands and roll it out with a rolling pin?
RS: Sometimes we used that thing (spaghetti maker) to make the spaghetti.
BG: You know it was just like a grinder with different kinds of plates and shapes.
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Reb: I remember, and maybe you do too, that when my grandma would make it, she would
first roll it out flat.
BG: Like for noodles.
RS: Like tagliatelle.
Reb: She would take a broom handle and she would roll the (flattened) dough around the
broom handle and then she would push the dough off the broom handle and cut it into thin
strips with a sharp knife. These she would spread all over the table (to dry). Tagliarini, I
believed she called them. Sometimes she would make gnocchi from potato flour. These were
shaped like seashells. Did you make your tomato paste?
RS: Yes, a long time ago. We don't have anything like that now.
Reb: Yes, it was nice and strong and you only needed a little bit to make the salsa (sugo).
RS: You would fry the onion and put a little tomato paste and a little water, too.
BG: They would also put the tomatoes out in the sun to dry....sun-dried tomato paste.
Reb: Yes, my grandfather used to do that, also. It was very strong so that you didn't need
but a very little bit of it.
RS: Yes.
Reb: Do you put a little sugar in your sauce?
RS: Along time ago we didn't put any. People didn't have any (sugar).
Reb: So that started just recently then. Did you have any opportunity to go to school when
you were young?
RS: No my job was picking cotton and working hard, that's all. Daddy didn't believe in
schooling a long time ago.
Reb: Did you learn to read and write later on?
RS: No.
Reb: What about going to church, did you have to take a wagon to come into Bryan?
RS: Yes.
BG: Holidays only.
Reb: Do you remember very much about the floods when the Brazos "Bottoms" flooded in
1899 or 1900?
RS: Yes, a long time ago, but they had no trouble on the farm.
Reb: What was your husband's name?
RS: Jack.
Reb: Where was he born?
RS: Sicily.
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Reb: Do you remember what year he was born?
RS: December 19, 1890.
Reb: Where did you meet your husband? Did you know him when you were very young and
did you grow up together?
RS: No, just the family.
Reb: Were you married in Bryan?
RS: Yes.
Reb: Were you married at St. Anthony's Church?
R5: Yes.
BG: Aunt Rosie, you were married in St. Anthony's Church. Aunt Rosie was the first baby
to be baptized at St. Anthony's Church.
Reb: What is the date of your marriage?
RS: 1911, November 25th.
Reb: To BG: You say she was the fast baby in the baptismal record for St. Anthony's
Church, the earlier one that burned? To RS: When you were growing up what kind of games
did you play with your friends?
RS: I don°t remember.
Reb: I suppose you didn't have much time for playing.
RS: No, we played cards sometimes when it rained or turned cold.
Reb: So much depended on the weather. When you were growing up did you play only with
Italian children?
RS: No.
Reb: Do you remember any other old Italian customs other than the St. Joseph's Altars?
BG: St. Joseph's Tables.
Reb: Did you do a lot of cooking for the St. Joseph's Tables? What do you make?
RS: Just cookies only, sugar cookies.
Reb: Can you tell me something about home remedies? If someone got sick in the house I
know that often people would mix turpentine and sugar to make a cough syrup. Do you
remember using any when your children were small.
BG: She didn't have any children.
Reb: Well, do you remember any medicines that your mother would give to you when you
were sick.
RS: Sometimes a little honey for a cough.
Reb: We used to have camphor trees where I grew up. Do you remember camphorated oil?
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My grandma used to boil these leaves to make a rubbing potion.
BG: No, we didn't do that.
Reb: This morning I was talking to Sally Lampo and Josephine Patranella about making the
rolled up wax tubes to put into the eazs for earaches. These were set on fire and the vacuum
formed would draw out the excess wax.
BG: We did that a lot.
Reb: I still do this for my husband. He never forgot when he saw my grandmother do this to
one of us children. He has a problem with his ears and every once in a while he complains of
excess wax. Would you do the same thing?
RS: Yes. I used to do it for a lot of my friends.
BG: She took care of a lot of sick people.
Reb: Can you flunk of anything else you would like to add?
RS: No. I've stayed home all of my life.
Reb: Did you raise any children other than your own?
RS: I raised a small child whose mother had died.
Reb: So Bonnie did you live with Mrs. Shimen?
BG: A few years when I was small until Daddy got married again. So with his second wife
he had Janie and Mrs. Shimen raised Janie. Janie was the baby that was born and, coming
from the hospital, she went to her house and she raised her. She calls her "mama."
(Comments are made while looking at family photos).
Reb: Mrs. Shimen, I am hoping to write a book about the Italians in this area and would you
mind if some of this information you have given me today is put into my book? Would that be
..all right?
RS: Yes.
BG: When her husband moved to town when they were young, he opened up a dry goods
store and when a lot of people from the country would get sick and have to go to the doctor
they would stay with her and she would take caze of them.
Reb: What was this dry goods store called, do you remember?
BG: No, maybe Shimen's Dry Goods Store.
Reb: Have you any idea about what period of time that might have been? In the 1930s?
BG: Oh, it was well before the 1930s. Maybe in the 1920s. I got married in 1934 and they
were running it then. Maybe in the late 1920s.
Reb: Thank you both so very much.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Josephine Emola Patranella (JEP)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 20, 1990
Bryan, Texas 77802
Reb: Josephine, where were you born?
JEP: January 20, 1928 in Bryan, Brazos County, Texas.
Reb: Who were your parents?
JEP: Louis Emola and Eleanor Weido. They were both born in Italy, in Sicily and mother
was born in Poggioreale. My father was born in Sicily, but not in Poggioreale.
Reb: What were their birthdates?
JEP: My daddy was born on June 29, 1889 and died September 5, 1972 and my mother on
August 15, 1901 and she died November 25, 1974. They were married June 17, 1923.
Reb: How many children were in your family?
JEP: Four, two boys and two girls. I was the third child.
Reb: When did your parents arrive in the United States?
JEP: The same year as her (Sally Ponzio Lampo, Josephine's first cousin, who was present
at the interview) parents, 1890.
Reb: That was your father. Did your mother arrive at the same time?
JEP: I don't know when she arrived.
Reb: Do you know where they met?
JEP: She was living in Houston and her mother had died and her dad had remarried. She
was helping to raise the other children because the other wife died, too. I don't know who had
introduced them but he went down there and they met.
Reb: Did they marry in Houston?
JEP: Yes.
Reb: So did they come in through New Orleans and then migrate to the Brazos Valley area?
JEP: Yes
Reb: Did your family live in Bryan or out in the country?
JEP: They were living out in the country in the neighborhood as Sally's.
Reb: Can you relate to me stories you remember about them?
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JEP: They would talk about the hard times they had, both of them. Neither of them had
much schooling, my mother didn°t go at all and my daddy just went for a few weeks. What
little bit he learned he learned on his own. I remember him sitting in the garage and reading the
Italian books that he had.
Reb: Were these novels? I remember my grandmother always had a big book which was
very flock and she always read it. It took years and years to read, but she read it over and
over. I don't know what happened to it, but I know it was brought over from the '°old
country."
JEP: That little book we gave to my niece. It came from Italy and was in Italian. She could
read parts of it, but the accent was different from the way that they were taught.
Reb: I guess you could say that they really didn't have any formal education.
JEP: No, they didn't.
Reb: And they just taught one another the things that they would learn. They were self-made
people. do you remember some of their stories about their "growing up." Of course, they
grew up in the Brazos Valley, but the conditions that they lived under were very similar to
Sally (Ponzio Lampo). But you probably have some special stories about your own family that
you can recall.
JEP: Not really.
Reb: What about the cooking and the making of cheese and tomato paste? Was this pretty
much the same? I suppose you all did these things together and in groups, most of the time?
JEP: Each family would do their own.
Reb: What do you remember from your childhood days?
JEP: Talking about the cheese, mother made it and people would come in from Iiouston and
they would pay her ten cents a pound and now people are selling that same cheese for $4.50 a
pound. She would make it to sell if she had extra.
Reb: One thing we didn°t talk about this morning was the raising of fennel ~nnocchao) and
how it was used.
JEP: We raised it, we had a big garden and that was one of the main plants. We used the
seed for hamburger patties seasoning and in the (Italian) sauce.
Reb: And did you cook it as greens, also?
JEP: Right,
Reb: Were there any other ways that the fennel was used, other than in the salsa? Was it
used in soups?
JEP: We used to cook the fennel first and then cook noodles with it.
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Reb: Are we talking about the green tops?
JEP: Yes, and she would put a little olive oil with it and salt and pepper.
Reb: Would they use the chopped fresh fennel, garlic, olives and celery to make an antipasto?
JEP: No.
Reb: What were you favorite pastimes when you were growing up?
JEP: We used to play volleyball or "Annie over," usually on weekends when we would get
together.
Reb: Did you attend catechism classes when you were young?
JEP: Only for a short time when we were getting ready to make our First Communion and
Confirmations are the only times. We'd go and then Father Pete came out and taught us a little
bit. That was Father Peter Valenta.
Reb: Were there quite a few Nuns here at that time?
JEP: There were at St. Joseph's Church.
Reb: When you went to catechism classes or to visit the Nuns would they every teach you to
embroider, crochet or do any of those things?
JEP: No, they just taught us catechism.
Reb: What about social activities, such as dancing, in those days?
JEP: That was rare for me. We stayed at our grandparents a lot.
Reb: I imagine that the rules for you girls was very strict.
JEP: Very strict.
Reb: Could you date or go out with boys other than Italian boys?
JEP: Not really. They (the parents) had to approve of them.
-.Reb: At what age was a girl was allowed to date?
JEP: I didn't go out until I was about eighteen and then it had to be in a group.
Reb: What were the dating customs at that time?
JEP: We had to be in a group and home by a certain time. They had to know just where we
were going.
Reb: Where were you allowed to go? Did you go to the movies?
JEP: Yes.
Reb: What about church dances, were there very many held at that time?
JEP: If you went to a wedding, the girls would dance together.
Reb: Didn't the fathers allow the boys to dance with you?
JEP: I guess, but I don't think the boys really cared. That didn't start until the later years and
we were younger.
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Reb: Do you think the boys were too shy, really?
JEP: I think some of them were.
Reb: What do you recall as far as marriage customs go? What was the typical routine if a boy
and girl decided that they wanted to get married? What was expected of them?
JEP: First, the boy had to come over with his parents to ask, and then the parents would have
to decide.
Reb: Was there a waiting period for the engagement before the wedding date?
JEP: We didn't.
Reb: Because I know that the information from Sally Ponzio Lampo is the same as your
family information I will not cover those questions again. How much schooling did you and
Sally have?
JEP: We both graduated from high school. We went to country schools up until the ninth
grade and then came into Bryan to high school.
Reb: What school did you go to?
JEP: I started off at Prospect and we moved from there and I went to Tabor. We moved
around a lot. Sally went to Prospect all of her life. I was valedictorian for two years. Sally
said they closed the school and reopened it and I was valedictorian again.
JEP: I was the only girl in the seventh grade and there were nine of us, eight boys and one
girl. I'm surprised that I got to go to school.
Reb: Now, when you finished in high school, how large a class did you have?
JEP: We had a huge class, because all of the schools were consolidated.
Reb: Can you think of any customs other than those that were mentioned earlier by Sally?
Some that are more dear to you and that stand out in your mind?
JEP: They are about the same.
Reb: And remedies as well?
JEP: Yes.
Reb: And your husband's name?
JEP: John Patranella, Jr. He was born December 11, 1927 and we were married here in
Bryan at St. Anthony's Catholic Church, September 19, 1948. We have two children, one
daughter, Linda 70, and one son, Michael John.
Reb: Do you have grandchildren?
JEP: Yes, Michael John has Philip and Mark.
Reb: What kind of business has your husband been involved in?
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JEP: He was a salesman for Sanitary Farm Dairies and they went out of business and then he
worked for Borden's for seventeen years.
Reb: Was John's schooling pretty much the same as yours?
JEP: He moved back and forth from California. He was in the same grade with me at Tabor
and he went to the eleventh grade.
Reb: Where was he born?
JEP: In Houston on December 11, 1927.
Reb: Is there anything else that we might not have covered in this interview and Sally's?
JEP: I can't think of anything off hand.
Reb: I will make a typed transcription of this for you and would you mind if I put a copy of
this tape in the Archives at the University Library? I would like to use some of this material in
my book on the Italians of this area. I really do appreciate the help of both of you .
JEP: No, I don't mind.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Bonnie Patranella Grizzaffi (BG) with comments by Mrs. Rosie
Patranella Shimen (RS).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 20, 1990
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Bonnie, what is your street address in Bryan?
BG: William Jcel Bryan Parkway.
Reb: Where were you born?
BG: Here in Brazos County in 1915 on January 14th.
Reb: Who were your parents?
BG: My daddy was Frank L. Patranella.
Reb: Frank L, was that for Luke?
BG: Yes.
Reb: And your mother?
BG: My mother was Virginia Carrabba.
Reb: When was your father born?
BG: September 11, 1891
Reb: What about your mother?
BG: She was born March 12, 1897. If Aunt Rosie (Shimen) is 94 he probably
was.....there's another lady between them...he probably was born in 1891, because she was
born in 1897 and he was older than her.
Reb: 1894 approximately. I guess you don't recall the month or the day? What about your
mother?
BG: I don't recall for her either. Of course, I had it written in the Bible, but I don't know
now.
Reb: We can always pick that up. Where were they born?
BG: Both of them were born in Brazos County, in Bryan, Texas.
Reb: So actually it would be your grandparents who came over.
BG: Yes, right.
Reb: Where did your grandparents live? Were they in Sicily?
BG: Yes.
Reb: Where in Sicily?
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BG: In Corleone, both of them, the Patranellas and the Carrabbas.
Reb: Do you have any idea when they arrived?
BG: No idea.
Reb: Did they come through New Orleans?
BG: Well, the Carrabbas did but not the Patranellas. The Patranellas, I think, came straight
to Texas, but the Carrabbas stopped in Louisiana.
Reb: Do you think they might have come through Galveston?
BG: Probably, I don't know.
Reb: What can you tell me about your grandparents? If one arrived in New Orleans and the
other some place in Texas, how did they meet? Do you know?
BG: This Grandma Carrabba was married to a Shimen. They used to call it Shimenetta and
then changed it to Shimen. And she stopped in some little town close to New Orleans to look
for a job. You know they landed there and they wanted to look for a job in the sugar cane
plantations. And her husband, Shimen, got sick at this plantation and he was sent to New
Orleans to a charity hospital. There he died and she didn't have any money to have him buried
where she was or where she knew. So he was buried by the county in New Orleans. She
never did get to see her husband anymore after he left the plantation. She had a brother who
came from Italy, too. His name was Bill and someone in the plantation told him that his
sister's husband had died and that she needed help because she had two little kids, Jack and
Joe, and so he went to look for her. He was about eighteen years old and he left her all he
could. During that time she would make a living by washing clothes and cooking for these
people that worked on the cane plantation. Many days she didn't have anything to eat but what
she had she would give to her children.
And then later on she met this guy named John Carrabba, and they married. He had three
kids. He had Tony, Joe and a lady named Ginny, Eugenia in Italian, and she was two, so they
started with a family of five. They were so poor that when they got married they had to
borrow the wedding ring. Neither one had any money to buy the ring, the jewelry that she had
from her first husband went to the hospital so she didn't have any left. Anyway, later on he
thought that with five children and not making much money in Louisiana they should go to
Texas. But we don't know how they came whether by train or wagon, but they came straight
here to Bryan. They had heard that the land was good. They started working on cotton and I
don't know how they were working, but later on he did well and he had more children and
bought more land. They bought a farm and they did really well together. I think they had six
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173
more children or maybe it was eight more together. And one of these they had together was
my mother.
Four years after my daddy married my mother she died from smallpox, I was only three
years old. My daddy then married one of my mother's sisters. In the meantime she was taking
..care of me and my brother was taken care of by Grandma Carrobba. Daddy married Janie, the
other sister, who had three children (John, Sam and Janie). When she died of a heartache
when Janie was born. And so Aunt Rosie Shimen took care of Janie and I took care of the
boys. Then later on daddy Bessie Mauro, that's D.B. Mauro's sister. She had one son,
Frankie, and that's all I can tell you.
Reb: Well, that's a lot to remember. Will you tell me about you and your husband, Luke
Grizzaffi?
BG: Yes, We got married in 1934 and he died of a heart attack in 1977. So, I have been a
widow quite a bit.
Reb: Where was he born?
BG: Morgan City, Louisiana.
Reb: What was your husband's business?
BG: We farmed for several years and then, in 1944 or'45, we came to town and opened up a
little grocery store. Later on we built a bigger store.
Reb: What was the name of your grocery store?
BG: Luke Grizzaffi's Grocery Store on North Sims (in Bryan). I had only one daughter,
Marilyn.
Reb: Is she married?
BG: Yes, she is married and has two kids: one fifteen named Keely Ann and a boy eleven
years old named Kenneth.
Reb: Don't we have them listed on one of the family trees that I did for Jobey Ruffmo?
BG: Yes.
Reb: How long was your husband in the grocery business? Was he in that business at the
.same time he was farming?
BG: No. When my second mother died we moved in with daddy for me to take caze of the
boys. Her husband had a store so my husband went to work for Uncle Jack Shimen for a
couple of yeazs, until daddy got married. When daddy married we opened a store ourselves.
Reb: Where was the farm located?
BG: On Cameron Ranch.
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174
Reb: There were quite a few farms out there. Many people I have talked with farmed in the
Cameron Ranch area. When they did this was the Cameron Ranch broken down into smaller
farms?
BG: Yes, I think it was many, many acres. Even after it was sold it in smaller plots it was
still called Cameron Ranch.
Reb: As a subdivision, I guess.
BG: Yes, I guess the guy who owned the land before was named Cameron.
Reb: Tell me about your younger days before you married.
BG: I went to St. Joseph's School and I finished there.
Reb: Finished high school there?
BG: No, not high school, just grammar school.
Reb: What did you do azound the house when you were growing up?
BG: A little of everything.
Reb: What were you favorite things to do?
BG: Iron.
Reb: That°s unusual.
BG: Mama did the washing and I did the ironing. I just loved to iron. I worked on the farm
and we did everything that you could think of. We raised a lot, we didn't have much money,
but we always had plenty of food because we had cows, chickens, and always a big garden.
Reb: What clid you raise in the gazden?
BG: All kinds of vegetables, from potatoes on up.
Reb: Did you raise fennel (fenocchio) there?
BG: Yes, we had fenocchio and cardonas (stems of the artichoke plants).
Reb: Did you raise eggplant, also?
BG: Oh, yes, we had big, beautiful eggplant.
Reb: What are some of the things you did with the fennel besides putting it in the Italian
sauce?
BG: Well, you can boil it and then cook the spaghetti.
Reb: I guess you could add it to the frittata (omelet).
BG: Yes, and sometimes mama would mix it with other greens hike mustard greens, or turnip
greens. It took the bitterness away from the mustards or turnip greens and it was delicious.
Reb: Did you use the stalk of the fennel for salad? I wondered since it is not the choice lazge
size normally used for salads.
BG: No, it was grown for the greens and is more tasty than the lazger variety.
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Reb: Did you do much cooking yourself?
BG: No, we did it together.
Reb: What did you enjoy cooking the most?
BG: Well, we both loved to make cakes and pies.
Reb: Any particular recipes or any particular kind?
BG: No. We had a cookbook and we would both go and make some kind of cake, of
course, everybody wanted some kind of chocolate cake.
Reb: Did you use a wood stove for your cooking?
BG: Oh, yes, and later on a kerosene stove.
Reb: Was it a big one?
BG: No, just average size. But most of the things I remember we laugh about now. When
mama and daddy would go to town and leave us kids at home, I'd always try to make candy
and I wasted more sugar because my candy would never come outright.
Reb: What kind of candy were you trying to make?
BG: I was trying to make chocolate candy, fudge, but I always overcooked it. But we never
threw any of it out. We always ate it.
..Reb: When I was growing up the simplest candy that I learned to make was the sugar water
candy. You just cook sugar and water together until it comes to a hard crack stage and then
pour it into a buttered dish to harden and break up.
BG: It was just like a little girl said that my first word was "chocolate." We loved it and we
made chocolate pies and coconut pies. Every weekend mama and I always made a dessert.
Reb: What about learning to sew or embroider? Did the young girls learn to do that?
BG: I did learn to embroider. I learned from mama, but I never learned to crochet and I still
love it.
Reb: What about sports, did you ever indulge?
BG: No, sure didn't.
Reb: Are there any special Italian customs that stand out in your mind or home remedies?
BG: We didn't do too much in home remedies. We had a doctor that had a farm next to ours.
His name was Dr. Henry Harrison, Sr. because there were three more. Anyway he would
always stop at our house and only one time did he tell us to doctor someone with a real croupy
cough with a teaspoon of sugar mixed with two drops of kerosene. Then there were other
medications such as Castoria and castor oil and such as that. }
Reb: Do you remember any special customs in regards to engagements and weddings? Did
the young man have to talk to the family to ask for the girl's hand in marriage?
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BG: Yes, that°s how it worked a long time ago.
Reb: What about the engagement period? Was there any set time for engagement other than
what the church required?
BG: Yes and no.
Reb: The church still requires the publishing of the banns of marriage three times in the
church bulletin.
BG: Yes, we did that even in my time.
Reb: That was a week apart, I think.
BG: Yes, for three Sundays in a row before the wedding. It had to be announced.
Reb: So you really had to be engaged a month before you could marry?
BG: Oh, yes, you really did. And we had to have a ring and a new dress and plan a little
P~Y~
Reb: When you were growing up were there very many non-Italians near where you were
living?
BG: After I got married we had a lot of non-Italians, but before we didn't.
Reb: Were there any problems with getting along with the non-Italians?
BG: 1Vo, we had real good neighbors, they were great.
Reb: I get the feeling that there were some problems in some areas.
BG: There was one lady, her name was Eileen Kosh, I still see her at church. We were
neighbors. She was Bohemian and they were real good people. You know we lived in the
country and we had to walk to school, at least three miles, to St. Joseph's School.
Reb: Where did you go to school?
BG: St. Joseph's School.
Reb: And that didn°t include Junior High School at the time.
BG: Oh, no. It was just an elementary school with grades one through six.
Reb: What took place at your wedding when you married?
BG: It was real nice. We had a dance and we had a barbecue. Daddy killed a calf and my
mother-in-law killed a calf. I don°t know how many families came but we had a little hall here
in town and we had the dance there. Everyone ate and had fun.
Reb: Mrs. Shimen, I didn't ask about your wedding. Did you have a big celebration?
RS: Yes.
BG: They had athree-day celebration when she got married.
RS: They did it in the home.
Reb: Was that here in Bryan?
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RS: We married on a Saturday and we stayed all day long, and Sunday, too. We had
barbecue, spaghetti, and beer.
Reb: I guess there were a lot of people there?
RS: Yes.
Reb: Bonnie, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to add?
BG: No, I don't really.
Reb: It sounds as though you have remembered a great deal. Have you any objection to my
putting a copy of this transcription into the Texas A&M University Archives?
BG: No, that would be okay.
Reb: And you don't mind if I put some of this material in the book I am writing regarding
some of the Italians of this area?
BG: Okay.
Reb: Thank you both, very much.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with Mrs. Janie Emola Cangelose (JC).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 20, 1990
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Janie, where were you born?
JC: Bryan, Texas on Old Reliance Road, about 3 1/2 miles north of Bryan.
Reb: What is your birthdate:
JC: December 29, 1924.
Reb: Who were your parents?
JC: Sam and Mary Emola....Mary Pomilla Emola.
Reb: Your father's birthdate?
JC: June 21, 1893.
Reb: And your mother's birthdate?
JC: January 11, 1896.
Reb: When did they die?
JC: Father died April 13, 1969 and mother on May 13, 1981.
Reb: Where were they born?
JC: My mother was born in Steele's Store which is out in the "Bottoms." My father was
born in Thibodaux, Louisiana.
Reb: So they were both born in the States, so it would have been your grandparents who
came over?
JC: And my oldest brother.
Reb: Who were they:
JC: Janie and Carlo Pomilla.
Reb: They were married when they came over?
JC: My grandmother's name was Bozotta.
Reb: Where did they come from?
JC: They said Palomaro, but I was told that is not the same place as Palermo, so I really don't
know.
Reb: Do you have any idea when they came to the U.S.?
JC: The Emolas came here in 1891, so it would probably be around that same time, although
they did not know each other.
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Reb: Where did they enter the U.S.?
JC: Louisiana, New Orleans, I guess at the port there.
Reb: I have seen their names on the register.
JC: My daddy°s family, also. He was born in Louisiana. The Emolas also landed in New
Orleans. Didn't you interview Sally (Campo), she is the same as my father and her mother. I
did have my dad°s mother°s maiden name but I don't know where I put it.
Reb: How long were they in New Orleans before they came up this way?
JC: My dad said he was little, he was just a young boy of two or three years old, because he
doesn't remember too much about it. And they worked in the cane fields, so he must have
been older than that to have remembered He must have remembered his father talking about
that.
Reb: So then they came from New Orleans right on up to Steele's Store?
JC: Not my father but my mother did, and then went up to the Old Reliance area. Then my
grandfather bought up some land as soon as he could.
Reb: Did they start farming then?
JC: 1'es.
Reb: This is your grandfather and tus family? What kind of farm did they have?
JC: They had cotton, corn and a vegetable garden, all kinds, but the main crops were cotton
and corn.
Reb: How long were they in that azea?
JC: They stayed there forever. We moved to town in 1944 when I graduated from high
school and I wanted to come to school and go to business college. We all wanted to come to
town and my father decided that since we were all wanting to move he took a job as a
carpenter's helper.
Reb: So what happened to the farm then?
JC: We sold it, and it has oil wells on it, but we didn't get the mineral rights. We sold it to
the Rizzos and they got all the oil benefits. But we can°t look back.
Reb: No, you can't. Do you remember your grandparents talking very much about the "old
country?'°
JC: My grandmother, that I was named after, was the one who talked mostly about it. She
talked about living in a flat and they used to bring the animals, the small anunals.
Reb: Was this in winter or at nighttime?
JC: She talked like it was all the time (yeaz azound).
Reb: So they were farmers?
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JC: Yes, I don°t remember too much. Of course, when my mother and daddy first got
married, my father practically raised all of his in-laws. And my grandfather was completely
` blind when I was born. He took in their family, not at home, they lived in another house but he
showed them how to farm and they worked together all those years. The little aunt that you see
me with, or did you ever notice?
Reb: I guess I hadn't.
JC: Well, I take them to church, and they are always telling me that they raised us but we
raised them because we have been taking care of them for a long time.
Reb: Would you describe the people who are in this picture and what their relationship is to
you?
JC: The older man, sitting down, is granddad's brother and this is his wife, standing with her
hands on his shoulder, and these are their children and it looks like she's expecting. The only
name I know is that his name was Thomas.
Reb: Was this picture taken here in the States?
JC: Here in the States, because they came and they stayed My uncle said he thought they
stayed maybe about a year, but they wanted to go back. He looks just like my granddad. He
-- was the youngest brother and he came, I don't know how many years, after they were here.
Reb: Do you recall your family ever saying what their reasons were for coming here to the
States? Do they remember bad times back in Sicily, politically? I know that economically
times were not good then.
JC: They came here for economic reasons and they never talked about being chased away so
if they had, and I'm sure they had bad times, that's why they came. I never heard, except from
~~:my grandmother Pomilla, talk about how hard it was to make a living there.
Reb: When they arrived did they lease farm land?
JC: Yes, they did,
Reb: I think that's what most of the immigrants did when they first arrived and eventually
bought land.
JC: My grandfather Pomilla never bought land, he always leased, but my father bought quite
a bit of land around that area but it was poor land. They called it Poor Farm Road or whatever
_-.and cotton got just about that high.
Reb: Just wouldn't grow.
JC: No, but it was great for black-eyed peas and okra.
Reb: So they did get a good crop of vegetables?
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JC: We always had plenty to eat. We were poor but we didn't know it because we always
had plenty to eat.
Reb: Well, you might have been poor by other people's standazds but not really by your
own.
JC: Yes, when everyone was in the same situation. We were a very, very "togetherness"
family. They got together every Sunday and we kids played ball together and with the
neighbors, like the Ceminas who were close to us.
Reb: When you were growing up and got together with others what did you enjoy doing the
most?
Did you play softball?
JC: We played softball sometimes and if we got together at night we played "post office.°'
Reb: Those kissing games, yes, I know.
JC: Well, we would be out in the front yard. We had no electricity, so we depended on the
moonlight for us to see. And our land was right there. My father was like a "jack leg
carpenter" and he built smokehouses azound there and we smoked our own meat and he made
wine out of mustang grapes. We loved to serve it, although he didn't care that much about
drinking it. We had company all of the time because we were a big family.
Reb: So your social activities centered around the home and church.
JC: Oh, yes and we went to a country school and my father and several of the other guys
were trustees of the school. We used to invite the schoolteachers over and make homemade ice
cream.
Reb: Where did you go to school?
JC: Wixon/Prospect School.
Reb: What did your mother teach you to do in the home? Were there some old customs that
she passed on to you other than the usual household chores like making a bed, cook, etc.?
JC: Not really, see my mother learned how to do things from her mother and she made bread.
My dad built a fornano (small oven) outside and used to put coals in it. When the top of the
oven got really white she raked out the coals and she cooked four or five big pans of bread
with six or eight loaves of bread in each pan, and she made them for us and the family, my
mother's family and an old bachelor who used to come every Friday with his buggy. We have
pictures of this man coming because we used to run to the gate because he used to give us a
nickel to open the gate for him.
Reb: Was this French bread or regular white bread?
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JC: Regular white bread, and I wish we had taken pictures of it, but we didn't. It was right
in by the house and that was where the cotton was and when my mother made the bread we'd
gall quit at the end of the row and go in and have a hot loaf of bread with butter or olive oil.
There used to be someone who came around in the country and sold vanilla and pastas and we
made our own pasta, too. We still have a pasta maker.
Reb: Is that pasta maker at all like the ones we have today?
JC: Yes, except it is on a (carpenter's) horse and it's bigger. You had to have two people to
.turn it. It had a thing on the top of it. My brother has it. I have a picture, or Lena has, that we
used to show at the Mall at the People's Festival and she is showing everybody how to make
bread. She wore a really pretty blue dress when she was demonstrating.
Reb: Do you still have a recipe that was used when they made bread?
JC: I never made the bread, but Sally's recipe is similar to what my mother made, because I
think they all used the same recipe.
.Reb: What kind of flour did you use in that pasta ?
.. JC: Gladiola hard wheat bread flour. It came in fifty pound sacks and it had to be Gladiola,
she wouldn't use any other brand for the bread.
Reb: What about the pasta ?Did you use the same flour?
JC: The same flour.
Reb: Do you think Sally has a basic recipe for the pasta, too?
JC: She probably does. I have my mother's recipe, too. My sister went over there one time
when she was making it. She didn't have a recipe so she measured everything that went into
it.
Reb: What kind of pasta did you make?
JC: We made different kinds: thin spaghetti, the flat kind, small lasagna, and we still have
the plates that the dough went through.
Reb: Were you ever able to make the tube type macaroni?
JC: No, it was either the small strips of lasagna, the length of the finger and the different
sizes of the round macaroni, thin spaghetti and the middle size.
Reb: What about ravioli?
JC: We had never heard of ravioli until some lady from California came and visited my
mother and she told my mother about raviolis .
Reb: But you never remember them talking about it being made in Sicily?
JC: No, they never made it, they just made the flat pasta.
Reb: Are you familiar with the pasta called gnocchi?
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JC: No, what do they look like?
Reb: They look like the seashell macaroni and are generally made from a potato dough.
JC: Yes, I have seen that in the stores.
Reb: You roll the dough into long pencil strips and cut into small nuggets, then roll them with
the thumb so that they look like seashells.
JC: Actually my mother-in-law was the one who taught my mother how to make the raviolis
and they used to make them with pasta dough.
Reb: When you were growing up did you help with the cooking?
JC: Oh, yes, and the gardening and canning and that°s why I wanted to get away.
Reb: So you really didn't have much time to yourself.
JC: No. We went to school but the first two weeks of school we had to miss in order to
finish picking out the cotton. We hated it, we thought that "gosh, that's all we do is work."
This was a big family and we had to work. This was in 1944 and I had decided that I had
enough of this. My older sister and two brothers did not use it that much, but I was
determined that I wanted to get out of there. I had a teacher from Wixon-Prospect come to talk
to my father, and let me go to high school so that I was the first in my family, or any of the
other Italians in our neighborhood, to go to high school. Later they all went. My father was a
little bit more progressive than the other ones.
Reb: Yes, with that attitude, but with you the ice was broken and the changes began to take
place.
JC: From me on down to the others.
Reb: So then you attended St. Joseph's High School?
JC: No, it was Bryan Junior High and when I finished they had a little business school here
so my brother paid for my books and I was able to go to business school. The people who
owned the school gave it to me on credit until I got a job and then I paid for my tuition.
Reb: What kind of an education did your parents have?
JC: My father had none, but was as smart as a whip! My mother went to about the fourth
grade in Stone City and the rest of the sisters, when they moved to the hill country with us,
went to the sixth or seventh grades.
Reb: I think Stone°s City was the original name of the community and then it took another
name.
JC: Maybe Steele's Store.
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Reb: I think that's right. When your parents were married and lived in the country did they
have more social activities with the Italians than the non-Italians? Did they make any comments
about difficulties in the relationships between the two groups?
JC: My mother learned how to can and do that sort of thing from the non-Italians. My father
could speak good English and he was in World War I so that he learned then.
Reb: So would you say that they had a good relationship with their American neighbors?
JC: Oh, yes, even with the blacks. My dad took everybody in. If someone came neaz in a
wagon and it was raining we were close to the road and they would come in and my father
used to make coffee for them.
Reb: There were no problems then with the Ku Klux Klan appearing on the scene?
JC: No, not in this area. Never heard of it until we heard of it from Alabama. I'm sure there
might have been in the city, but I don't know.
Reb: I wondered since your father was that friendly with blacks.
JC: No, never did.
..Reb: Do you recall your pazents talking about the flood, or the early floods in the Brazos
Valley?
JC: My mother did, because she was out there when they had the floods.
Reb: So which ones of these would she have been in? Would it have been in 1899 or 1900?
JC: Probably the 1900. I think I heard her talk about the (flood) 1920s.
Reb: Yes, there was one in 1913 and in 1920, so it could have been one of those two.
JC: Yes.
Reb: What were her comments?
_JC: -They had to move out. They got into their wagons and they came towazds town, I guess.
That's really all I remember her talking about that.
Reb: Some of the people moved to Dickinson because of the flooding in the "Bottoms."
What was your husband's name?
JC: Sam J.
Reb: When was he born and when did he die?
JC: October 29, 1924 and died October 4, 1980.
Reb: Where was he raised?
JC: He was brought up in the "Bottoms." I met him in high school. We could not all go to
church at the same time since we were so many and so we didn't go to church every Sunday.
Some of us did, but not all of us. In bad weather we didn't go because the roads were so bad.
The first time I met Sam was in junior high really, and I don°t think I really met him then. He
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was a friend of Johnny Lampo. He and Johnny were real good friends, since the first grade.
We didn't really speak to each other, he did but I didn't know him until I started dating him
when he came home from the Service.
Reb: So would that have been in the 1940s?
JC: 1947 is when we got married, so I met him around 1946. I knew him when I saw him.
Reb: When did you marry?
JC: October 5, 1947 and he died October 3, 1980. We buried him on our anniversary. We
didn't date until he came home from the Service. I had broken up with somebody and he had
broken up with somebody.
Reb: And so how did you date before you marred?
JC: About eight months, and when everybody came home they were all ready to get married.
Reb: How many children do you have?
JC: 'T'hree, two boys and a girl, Larry, Janet and Thomas.
Reb: How many grandchildren do you have?
JC: Five, four granddaughters and one grandson.
Reb: Tell me about your wedcling.
JC: It was just like everyone else's wedding. We got married at St. Anthony's and there
were about two or three weddings the same day and we had a Fellowship Hall and just about
everyone had their weddings there. We went to Austin and to San Antonio on our
honeymoon. Sam had just opened a grocery store. His pazents had a grocery store before he
went into the Service and he was an only child.
Reb: Was that store in Bryan?
JC: Yes. His dad lost his leg when he (Sam) was a yeaz old. so they moved to town to run a
grocery store. Sam had sent enough money from being in the Service to start a grocery
business. He really wanted to stay in the Air Force because he liked to fly. But with his being
an only child he pleased his family and stayed.
Reb: So he was a pilot then?
JC: A bombazdier navigator.
Reb: What theater of operations was he in during the Waz?
JC: During the Waz.....he got over there towards the end of the Was. He was in Air Force 8
and he flew nine rrussions but it was mostly to bomb factories and things in West Germany and
Italy...in Dresden, Germany. He wrote down all of this about a year or two before he died and
he couldn°t remember two of the missions, and he flew nine missions so I have it written
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behind one of his pictures in a book for the kids to see. He loved flying but he was not tall
enough to be a pilot.
Reb: That's right, they did have a height restriction, and they still do.
JC: He was only five feet five inches tall so he was not tall enough to be a pilot.
Reb: Typical Italian stature! So when you married you stayed right here?
JC: Yes. and started running a grocery store...Cangelose's Grocery.
Reb: So all of your married life your husband remained in the grocery business?
JC: For twenty years. During the last fifteen years of Sam's life we were in the Pizza Hut
business.
Reb: Are you still in that business?
JC: No, after a year I got out. After we processed the papers, they really didn't discuss the
wife's staying in and it was not written anywhere. So between my trust office and the children
it was better to get out.
Reb: Have you any particulaz family customs or home remedies which you still follow today?
JC: I remember that when we got bitten by a red ant my dad would apply chewing tobacco.
And if you had a terrific headache or sunstroke my grandfather would put great big fig leaves
on your head and then set a glass of water on top....supposedly to draw out the sunstroke.
There was also something that they did with egg whites. My dad was good at that, too....like
a chiropractor. For the flu or colds: whisky with lemon and sugaz and honey. I neazly lost
this hand, my brother chopped it off with a hoe. I chop left-handed and he chopped right-
handed so he chopped....see there's a scar from there to there. It bled and bled and we were in
the country and they didn't take us to the doctor. They poured sugaz all over it but it didn°t
stop. It must have hit a leader. And then my grandmother had some "down" off of a swan and
she took it and stitched it together and it stopped it from bleeding. And that's the only thing
that stopped that from bleeding or I would have probably lost that whole arm. It°s a wonder it
didn't develop blood poisoning. My Grandmother Pomilla had it in a little jaz. We just didn't
go to the doctor.
Reb: Did a doctor come out and make the circuit periodically?
JC: No. My dad was always a °Mr. Fixit." He had an old Model-T and they used to saw
wood. He made a thing on the back of the Model-T with a motor. So one day he decided that
if that thing could saw wood it should be able to sharpen axes and other things like a
grindstone. ('They used one of these one day) to sharpen the axes and hoes and it got hot and ~_
broke into many pieces and my uncle got hit on the head and my dad also. Dr. Harrison came
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out and stitched them all up. But he (my Dad) was always doing something, building or
malting toys for us out of wood.
Reb: How many brothers and sisters do you have?
JC: I have three brothers, I had four but one died at the age of two, and I have five sisters.
One sister died four years ago, Rose age fifty-six of cancer. I have a brother in Kaufman,
Texas, a sister in Irving and a sister in Houston and everybody else lives here. They are all in
Texas.
Reb: Would you please give me the names, again, of your brother and sisters:
JC: Sam, Carlo, Paul, Angelo (deceased), Mary Emola Lanza, Jamie E. Cangelose, Rosalie
E. Court, Lena E. Weido and Nancy E. Deroncey, four boys and five girls.
Reb: Before we finish this interview I would like to know of your favorite pastimes.
JC: I took a course in crocheting and I can crochet a little. I bowled from 1962 to 1983.
After fifty years of age I took up golfing and I have been golfing ever since. I play canasta
with friends and I am involved in bible study. I have been studying that for about nine years
and I love it. I will never be a teacher, but I have learned a lot. We have just finished Isaiah
and this is the New American Bible. Now we are studying Matthew and we have studied both
the Old and New Testaments. These classes are at St. Anthony's Church where I have attended
church all of my life.
Reb: I would like your permission to put a copy of this transcript in the University Archives
along with the other transcripts of these interviews of many of the Italian families here in
Bryan. You will have a chance to read a copy and make corrections before this is done. I thank
you so much for your time and this information about you and your family.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with Mrs. Sally Ponzio Lampo (SL).
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 20, 1990
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Sally, please give me your full name, including your maiden name.
SL: Sally Marie Ponzio Lampo.
Reb: Where were you born?
SL: In Brazos County, Bryan, Texas.
Reb: When you say Brazos County, were you born in Bryan or out from the city?
SL: Out in the country on Old Reliance Road.
Reb: And your birthday?
SL: February 16, 1931.
-Reb: Who were your parents?
SL: Ben Ponzio and my mother was Mary Emola Ponzio.
..,_Reb: Where was your father born?
SL: In Italy and he was only six months when they came over. He was born in Sicily and I
don't know where.
Reb: Now, most of the Italians here came from Poggioreale.
SL: I want to say Palermo, but I think they were from Corleone.
Reb: Do you think your mother and father both came from there?
SL: My mother was born in Thibodaux, Louisiana.
Reb: Do you know their birthdates?
SL: My mom was born November 20, 1895 and my dad was born March 12, 1890. They
have both been dead seven years and they were married almost seventy-two years. They both
died four months apart. When they came (over) they went to Louisiana and then they came to
Bryan and then they never did move anymore.
Reb: When did your daddy die?
SL: August 19, 1982 and my mama died December 31, 1982. She married when she was
almost sixteen. Both of my grandparents came on the same boat but they didn't know each
other, and then they moved...and there was just a fence separating their property. And my
mama used to say that she used to play with my daddy all of the time, and in those days you
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know they (the parents) set you up and she said that she was just real surprised when they told
her that they were going to get married.
Reb: Were these grandparents your maternal or paternal grandparents?
SL: Both sets of grandparents. They all came on the same boat, but they didn't know each
other.
Reb: Do you know about when that was...when your grandparents came over?
5L: Well, my daddy was six months old.
Reb: So it would have been 1889, but your dad was born in 1895, right?
SL: Daddy was older....Daddy was born in 1890 not 1895. Mama was born in 1895 and
daddy in 1890.
Reb: I have March 12, 1890 for your dad and November 20, 1895 for your mom.
SL: They went to Louisiana and then they moved down here and then they bought property
next to each other.
Reb: So did they settle in Reliance?
SL: Well, they moved around quite a bit, but pretty much in the same area. That was where I
was born. they bought a place there.
Reb: What can you remember from stories told by your parents about their youth?
SL: I know that they had to go to school at night and my dad only went three months and a
black lady taught him. My mom only went a week, since they had to go at night her brother
had to quit and so she did, also, because she was afraid to go and they had to walk. I guess
the same black lady taught them and that°s all the education they had.
Reb: It is interesting that there was a black schoolteacher at that time.
SL: I don't know if she tutored in the home but they both were gone and daddy used to say
that it was a black lady who taught them.
Reb: So were these private instructions then?
SL: I think she was somebody who had a little education then. I doubt that she was
schoolteacher, I think she could just read.
Reb: Were there other children going to school at that time?
5L: I think so, because mama said that she had to quit because she was afraid to go and she
was so young, too. But in a week, she learned her alphabet and she still could say them. And
my dad, learn to do figures and they did pretty well on what they learned Mama couldn°t
speak English at all and she learned it here, daddy could speak it better but he was a baby when
he came from Italy. I don't remember how long they said it took them to come, but it used to
take days....maybe months.
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Reb: They would have left from the Port of Palermo and then touched down in New Orleans?
SL: In Thibodaux, I think most of them landed there. My mama had one brother that was
:born in Italy which is Josephine's dad, Louis Emola. My dad had one brother born in Italy
and the rest were born here and they all moved to California. My daddy is the only one left and
his sister is in Houston and she's still living, she will beninety-three. And I still have an uncle
in California, he is ninety and my daddy was almost ninety-three. My grandpa, Sam Emola,
Josephine's grandpa, was ninety-three when he died and one of my grandmas in California
was ninety-one and my Grandma Emola was in her early seventies when she died.
Reb: How far back can you remember your ancestry? I see that you have these records
written in your Bible.
SL: Only to my daddy's mother. They didn't go back too far.
Reb: For the sake of the record, would you like to give that information?
5L: My daddy's daddy ....that would be grandpa's daddy was named Sam Ponzio (they used
to name the first boy after him). Then his daddy's mother was Angelina Degelia. Although
she was a Degelia and my mother's mother was a Degelia they were not related My
grandmother's name was Patka and her daddy was named Paul and her mother was named
Lamella Paluma and, of course, they all came from Italy. And on my mother's side, her
grandfather was named Louis on her daddy's side and on her mother's side was named Sam
Degelia. And then my mother's grandmother was named Mary but they didn't know her last
name and my father's grandmother was Pauline Levoria. My mother's dad's name was Sam
Emola and my mother's name was Mary Degelia. My daddy's mother name was Sally, but I
don't think that what it was, but someone started that and so we are all named after her. My
=daddy was named pat so I have a brother named Pat and a brother named Sam, after both
parents. And then they started on the uncles. I had seven brothers and I am the only girl.
Reb: That's traditional in the Italian families...to carry a family name.
SL: The first one named after the daddy and then after the mother and then you started with
the other side.
Reb: Can you relate some of the stories your grandparents told of their early days in Italy,
and about their trip over?
SL: No, they just didn't used to talk about their past. I guess because it was so bad when
they left and they didn't used to let the kids listen to any of their conversations...we had to go
out and play when they had company. We didn't care anyway, we just stayed outside.
Reb: When they came to the United States and landed in New Orleans did they stay in g~
Louisiana for awhile before migrating to the Bryan area?
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SL: They stayed there when they came. Josephine's daddy was born in 1889 and he was
eleven months old when they got there. All the children were born there before they moved
here. My mom had three brothers and two sisters and they were all born in Louisiana and then
they moved.
Reb: And you have seven brothers and no sisters.
SL: And I was the seventh child and I had one brother who drowned when he was thirteen
and they are all living except Luke, who died last year.
Reb: Do you know how long they stayed in Louisiana before they came over this way? Did
any of them work in the sugar cane fields there?
5L: I think all they ever did was farm cotton.
Reb: In Louisiana?
SL: Yes.
Reb: Then, when they came to the Brazos Valley did they start right into famung?
SL: Yes.
Reb: Did they own their own land?
SL: They did when I came up, I don't know...well, some of the boys took it. They
remember my daddy tearing down a house and building another one in the same place. They
must have owned it for a long time. And what we had to do....like daddy's brother and
mama°s brothers who were here...when we finished a crop whoever finished first had to go
and help the others. We had one uncle and he didn't have but two children, but we were a big
family and we all had to go and help them. Then Janie Cangelose, her daddy is my uncle, too,
they used to do the same thing.
Reb: Really, these were all extended families who came over.
5L: They all bought pretty close together,
Reb: Where were your parents married?
SL: Here (Bryan) November 11, 1911. I think they marred just before St. Joseph's Church
burned, because they were building our church (St. Anthony's) at that time.
Reb: Did both of those churches burn?
SL: No, they were rebuilding St. Anthony's Church and St. Joseph's burned, and for awhile
they were all married there.
Reb: Well, St. Anthony°s had burned.
SL: Well, I don°t know, I just know that they rebuilt one (church). Maybe St. Anthony's
burned and they went to St. Joseph's at the time.
Reb: Have you tried to get any of those church records?
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SL: We have the marriage license.
Reb: When they set up housekeeping in the Brazos Valley, what sort of living conditions did
-- they have? Did they have running water, electricity?
SL: In fact, I remember one story that mama and them said..you know Jack Shimen and
Rosie Shimen...they were real close and they lived next door so they stayed together. They
never had children and she stayed with mama and they were always together. It rained and it
was real cold and they were over at my mom's house and it rained so hard in the house that
they couldn't even cook, they couldn't get to the stove. It slacked down about four o'clock
and they went to Mrs. Shimen's house and they cooked there. They really had a hard time.
Reb: Was it because the roof was leaking?
SL: Yes, it was so bad.
Reb: Did they come into town to church or was there a priest who came out .
SL: No, they had a wagon. I don't know that they went every Sunday, but for the big events
they used to stay two to three days. They had to come from so far... it was three to four miles
in the wagon and the roads were so poor.
Reb: Do you recall anyone talking about a priest who would go out into the bottoms and the
. areas out there to say Mass?
SL: I don't think so. They didn't start that until they started having the St. Joseph tables
(altars.).
Reb: So, if they wanted to go to church they had to make a long trip with the wagon. And
the only schooling that you recall was in a private home.
SL: And I don't think that she was a teacher, just somebody who wanted to help. When they
arrived here none of them could speak English, not even after leaving Louisiana. My mama
had to learn here.
I remember that they used to invite a lot of people over, all of them. For instance, they would
go to somebody°s house and they had been fattening up a calf or a pig and they would cook it
and invite them over. They wouldn't know if it was their own and then they would tell them
about it later. They used to pull pranks like that on each other. They didn't have meat in those
days and they would get together and they would tell the wives to go ahead and start cooking
and they would get a rabbit. They wouldn't be gone any time and here they'd come and they'd
get the rabbits ready and have their meal. I remember we used to have a lot of pigeons, my
mama would raise them and eat them a lob
Reb: Was this a carryover from the "old country?"
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SL: I don't know, I think they just did that, moreorless, for survival...they raised a lot of
chickens and they had pigs and cows, but they used the cows for milk so that they didn't kill
too many of them so we had a lot of chickens.
Reb: When they cooked the pigeons would they make a salsa with them?
SL: They would make a spaghetti sauce with them. They used to use a lot of wild animals to
make the sauce.
Reb: What kind of a stove did they use?
SL: Wood, and then she had a big oven outside made out of brick and she would bake bread
in it and it was delicious. And she would build a fire in there and then take all the fire out and
the bricks were so hot and then put the bread in there and it still had enough heat when she
finished the bread so that she could put some meat or potatoes and they would still bake. And
then when it cooled she would put the wood back in there so that if it rained they would still be
able to make her bread. She would make pans and pans because there were ten of us. Then
each one of us would take a pan out there and she would put it in that thing (oven) fornino..
Reb: She must have spent hours and hours baking bread for all of you.
SL: She used to love to do it. She said when she was seven yeazs old her mother was sick all
of the time so she would bring the pan to the side of the bed and her mother would tell her what
to do.
Reb: And thus must have been where you developed your love for making bread.
SL: 1?robably because I had to do it. And they used to make cheese and we used to have to
do that.
Reb: Would this have been ricotta cheese?
SL: A regulaz cheese and then they would make the ricotta after they got through. She
would have the big crock jazs and make that brine because they would make enough for the
whole year while the cows were giving rrrilk. Then you would have to take it out and clean and
put it back in. She used to love to do that, also.
Reb: You said they would make a ricotta cheese afterwards, but about this cheese that they
were making, what did the finished product look like?
SL: First, you would make it and then let it sit until it would sour and then you would cut it.
You would let the milk clabber with the Junket tablets and then make this cheese and put it on a
cabinet and let it sour. then you would slice it...it had a white texture. Then you would slice
this and pour boiling water and this would melt it and your would work it until it was real
smooth. Then you would cover it with salt and leave it out again to let it dry for a few days.
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Then you would put it into a brine and after you kept it for a long time it would make oil inside,
the older it got, and you would use that (cheese) to grate.
Reb: What was that called in Italian?
SL: Just formaggio. The water that was left, they would add little milk and a little vinegar
and it would make this ricotta. So you had both in one day, and before they made the cheese,
they wouldn't put all the cream in it, they would skim it and then they would make butter from
that cream.
Reb: So they would really got two different kinds of cheese from that one batch.
5L: If you left all the cream that cheese would be crumbly. If you didn't want the cheese to
grate you would leave out the second part; you would just coat it with salt and let it set and then
you could refrigerate it. When the deep freeze came out my mother didn't put it in the brine
anymore she used to put it in the deep freeze, and it would age in there and get oil. She was in
the nursing home for five years, and after she died we went through her deep freeze and she
had a cheese in there that weighed five or six pounds. We cut it and it was so mellowed and it
- had a little grease on it. We cut it up and divided it and we had cheese for a while. She used to
like to see just how big she could make them.
Reb: Have you ever written any of these recipes down for your family?
SL: The cheese I have, but everybody made it the same way. But you have to have the raw
milk to make a really good cheese.
Reb: The pasteurized, you feel, doesn't do as well?
SL: It makes the cheese, but it is not as good. I guess the process does something to it, but
you warm it a little bit and put the Junket tablet in there.
Reb: Did you have Junket tablets then?
SL: Yes.
Reb: Did they use rennet from the cow's stomach?
SL: They used to buy it. I remember mama used to go to the drug store and buy it, and also
they used to make their own yeast cakes. They would buy the hops and mix it with cornmeal
and make patties, like meatballs, and let that dry, and if you were going to make bread like
today you would have to mix the yeast last night.
Reb: In what form would the hops be?
5L: Dried and you would make a tea from it. And then mix it with cornmeal and make these F
patties and you kept those until they dried and then you could break off what you needed.
Reb: So that was your yeast cake?
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SL: It was so slow it would take a whole day. They had to mix part of the dough the night
before and then they would mix that like a sour dough into the bread and then it would take
hours to rise, but the bread was really good.
Reb: What kind of flour were they using?
SL: Gladiola hard wheat flour. They would buy big sacks of that. And in those days it was
a treat when daddy would go to gin (cotton) and bring ice and we would have ice cream when
he first brought it. Also, they used to sell bananas really cheap and when they would go to gin
a bale of cotton they used to treat the kids and daddy would come home with a whole stalk of
bananas. We just really didn't get much but we didn't think much of it, because we had a lot to
eat and we would get together.
Reb: You didn't have much of a variety but what you had, you had plenty of.
SL: Mostly potatoes, because they grew potatoes and they made enough and I remember that
we had a place underneath the house where we stored the potatoes...it was so dark they would
put wire and we would have to crawl under there and go get them. Everybody had the same
thing and they tried to preserve what they had. And then if they did have enough meat they
would salt it down or smoke it. Like when they would kill a hog or calf the family that killed it
was hardly left with some since they would want to send everybody some and they didn't want
to send them bones. They didn't have anywhere to keep it so when they had it everybody ate
it.
Reb: Tell me about the salting process. Was it sufficient, even in the hot weather, to have the
meat covered with salt?
SL: I suppose. We had a little smokehouse and they would smoke some of the meat.
Reb: How was the smokehouse constructed? Did they have containers that had coal or wood
that was slow burning inside?
5L: I don't remember exactly how they did it. I remember that they used to hang it and kept
smoke going all of the time. but most of the preserving was done with salt. A lot of them
would spread tomatoes out and let them dry and when you cooked you wouldn't need but just
a little bit of that. And they canned a lot...they used jars.
Reb: And did they raise a lot of garlic and make the garlic wreaths?
SL: We had a big garden and we didn't use any insecticides in those days, and the kids
would go out and pick the bugs off (the vegetables). I remember a lot of times going out and
picking off the bugs off of the potatoes. Of course, I was way down the line, my older
brothers did more of this.
Reb: What did they raise in the gardens?
197
SL: Tomatoes, onions, potatoes and more. We used to have cornbread for breakfast, all we
had was milk and cornbread And then at lunch, if you were in the field, we would have hot
bread and watermelon. We really had a balanced diet. We had a lot of fried potatoes and eggs
because we had a lot of chickens. I guess that's why everybody has high cholesterol. We had
.raw milk and butter. And when they killed a hog they used the lard and they made soap. They
would used lye and they cooked it (lazd) and it would get hard and they would cut it into bazs.
Reb: So the ingredients for soap were lye, fat and water?
SL: Yes, that and cook it until it thickened. They didn't have machines (washing), they had
those big black pots for those clothes that were really soiled They would boil them and put
that soap in there. It was so strong. Mama was still making it when I was young.
Reb: What kind of a recipe was used for the cornbread that you would have in the morning?
Would it be like the cornbread we eat today?
SL: It had just a little sugaz in it. they never measured anything, they couldn't read. My
mama never measured anything and if you asked her to make four loaves of bread you would
get four loaves. She never measured. She wasn't a real good cook, otherwise, but she could
really make bread, and she used to really love to make the cheese.
Reb: Did she make a sweetened spaghetti sauce like so many of us?
SL: Yes, and in those days we didn't put meatballs in ours, we put in chicken and hard
boiled eggs and potato patties instead of meatballs, sometimes. When you were trying to feed
ten in those days on a little farm..they didn't have a lot of land. They didn't have a big turn-out
like in the "Bottoms" because they didn't fertilize and anything and their land wasn't really that
good. They had a lot of hazd days.
Reb: I guess the St. Joseph Altars have gone on in the bottoms for a long, long time, haven't
they?
SL: I remember when I was real little, on Saturday nights when we were finished we would
go to visit. We would go to over twenty (altazs) in one night, especially, after the waz,
everybody was making them. They were keeping their promise (to St. Joseph) that if the boys
would come back they would honor him. Now it (the custom) is just about all gone.
Reb: Which is unfortunate, because they are just beautiful. It is nice when you have people
from the outside who want to come. It helps to perpetuate the traditions and makes people feel
that they really ought to try to keep them up if they can.
SL: Do you know the women who come every year, writing the books to do interviews on
the altars?
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Just like using the bread crumbs that represent the sawdust from St. Joseph, the carpenter. We
never knew that the cuchidad ,the plaited bread represented the crown (of thorns) on Jesus'
head. We never thought of that, we just put that on there (altar) because it has been traditional.
And they didn't serve meat because it was during Lent, they served egg instead and they served
fish.
Reb: And who are these ladies?
SL: I don't know. They are going to school at some university and they are making a book
and they have come down for years and watched us make the fig cookies.
Reb: Do they come down every year.
SL: Just about, if they know there is an altar, then they stay three or four days. They also
come the last day, too, and they have taken movies. They should be finished because they
have been coming for five or six years and have interviewed everybody.
Reb: Are they students?
SL: Yes, and they have to do essays and theses so this is what they chose to do. There are
about three or four of them and they are going to write a book on the Italian traditions during
St. Joseph's Day.**
(**Recommended reading on this subject: Orso, Ethelyn, "The St. Joseph Altar Traditions of
South Louisiana," The Center for Louisiana Studies, University of Southwestern Louisiana,
Lafayette, LA, Louisiana Life Series, No. 4, 1990)
Reb: I would like to get in touch with these young people, do you know how?
SL: 1VIary Ann Reina might know because she has made a couple of altars and they have
called her. I don't know if she knows how to get in touch with them, Rosalie Scarmardo
might know. They gave her some money to do some crafts here and to help teach how to make
the pastry. One is named Susan but I don't know her last name.
Reb: Do you remember any of the home remedies that were used?
SL: We had an uncle who would take turns coming. When we had a cough, he would put
kerosene in it (container) fill it full of sugar and set it on fire. This would turn into candy and
would make cough drops. Now they tell you that you would die if you drank it (kerosene).
Talk about a terrible taste! If you cut yourself they would either get the dirt from a dirt dauber
or fry onions (to apply to the cut), if it got infected and then bandage it. If you had a fever or
headache they used to tie potatoes around your head.
I remember if you had a headache in the field they blamed it on the sun and they would get a
castor bean leaf and put it on your head and you would wear it out in the field. They had a lot
(of remedies), they just wouldn't drag you to the doctor. When I was ten or twelve years old I
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burst my head and they couldn't stop the bleeding, and it was on a Sunday and we were all
together, all of the kids were playing. They had so much sugar on my head and I remember
.- them taking me to the doctor and he was so mad because he had to clean all of that out and he
couldn't stop it. That was the only reason they took me or they never would have because it
took so long to get there. You almost had to be dead before they would take you. They used
kerosene a lot for when you cut yourself.
Reb: Do you know anyone here in the Brazos Valley who has collected a lot of old records
from the "old country?"
SL: I don't think so. I tried to go back before mama and them died and we thought we had
.everything answered and we have one uncle and he doesn't remember a lot. We were trying to
trace some things back that we didn't think to ask when they were living. But they just didn't
talk about their past very much, other than the hard times they had when they were farming.
Reb: When were you and your husband (Mike) married?
SL: July 10, 1949. We were married in Bryan at St. Anthony's Catholic Church.
- .Reb: How many children do you have:
SL: Just one, Marian Jo Lampo, born March 8, 1954.
Reb: Is she married?
SL: No, she lives next door. Mike has no sisters, either, he had two brothers. There were
three in their family.
Reb: When this interview is typed I would like your permission to put a copy in the Archives
at Texas A&M University. Would you have any objection to this.
SL: No.
-~~: Reb: It is for students who come afterwards who will want to hear about this sort of thing.
SL: I will be interested in seeing the book.
Reb: I will give you a copy of the interview and a copy of the tape. Thank you very much.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Lena Bush Salvaggio (L5)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 13, 1992
Steele's Store, Texas
Reb: Lena, what is your full name?
LS: Lena Bush Salvaggio and I was born June 6, 1933.
Reb: Where were you born?
L5: In Caldwell, Texas
Reb: Who were your parents?
L5: Margaret Scarmardo Bush and Mitt Bush.
Reb: Where was your mother born?
LS: My mother was bom in Burleson County, Texas, September 14, 1899 and my father
was born in Louisiana (I think) July 19, 1896. He died in 1975.
Reb: When did you come to Steele's Store?
LS: When I got married on June 19, 1952. I stayed with my mother-in-law for nine months
and built this house.
Reb: Then, it would be your grandparents who came over from the old country?
LS: My father-in-law came over as a little boy.
Reb: What was his name?
LS: Gathan Salvaggio.
Reb: I don't know that Italian name.
LS: It's Gaetano. I heard my husband say that he came over when he was four years old.
Reb: Did he come in through New Orleans?
LS: He probably did because a lot them came in through there.
Reb: What can you tell me about your early growing up day? What do you remember about
your family: cooking, recreation, church activities. What are some of the most pleasant
memories you have?
L5: We were a close family from the time I was a little bitty girl.
Reb: How often do you have a St. Joseph's Altar?
LS: I have had one every year. Last year I didn't have one because mother was sick. I have
been undecided about having one this year. I would like to since I have had one for at least
seventeen years.
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Reb: Can you tell me a little bit about how you go about planning one? What's the procedure
that you follow? Do you usually have it in your home?
LS: First, I plan how I want to decorate it. Then my husband and I put up the frame with the
three steps.
Reb: Do the three steps represent something?
L5: Yes, Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
Reb: Before you reach this stage, do you contact your neighbors or friends to see if anyone
want to go in with you, or do you generally do this yourself`?
L5: I usually do it on my own and if somebody wants to help...well, mother always told me
that if anyone wanted to give a donation you have to accept it even if you don't need it. Or even
if they just want to help you have to accept this. Usually my neighbors can't wait until I start
one because they all want to work and help and I just love to do it. You just really have to have
done it to really understand. It's just a good feeling to have an altar. You get together for nine
days and nine night prior to St. Joseph. We have a novena and w really look forward to it.
Neighbors come over and every night it is a different bunch that come over.
Reb: And the priest who comes for the Novena, is he generally from St. Anthony's Church?
L5: Well, yes. One time I had one from Caldwell to come. I invite all of them around if they
want to come. As I have said, you put up your frame and then you get down and figure out
how much of this you are going to need..foodwise in preparing this food.
Reb: I often wonder, when you do that, how many do you know to cook for?
LS: Well, you just hop that you will have enough and you always try to plan to have enough.
Reb: What is the average number of people you have served?
LS: One year, I served seven hundred people.
Reb: Did you have enough food?
LS: Yes.
Reb: The good Lord provides, doesn't he?
LS: We baked for two weeks and we really make a lot of the Italian foods. You know
pagnolatd, fig cookies, sugar rings and scadalinas. That°s what everybody wants.
Reb: But that°s the traditional food.
LS: Yes.
Reb: And I suppose you grew up learning to make those, didn't you?
LS: Yes, I was just a kid, but as I grew up I had my job. I didn°t really work on decorating
and putting up the altar. My sister and my sister-in-law were the ones to decorate mamas altar,
putting up the lace and so forth. I was going to school and my job was to make all the pies.
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Reb: And how many pies would that be?
L5: At that time, when mama was baking, we had to make at least ten to fifteen pies. Hers
weren't quite as large and I remember when mama was making altars. Now we have all the
conveniences, mixers and everything.
Reb: And a freezer to put things in.
LS: Yes, I remember mama making a cake by just beating it by hand.
Reb: That's what you call a labor of love. When you were younger and you didn't have
freezers, how early could make these things, such a pies, so that they would stay fresh?
LS: Well, the pies wouldn't be made until the day before.
..Reb: And what kind of stove did you bake in?
LS: Just a regular stove.
Reb: Did you have a butane stove and oven at that time?
LS: Then mama had different stoves when I was just a baby. She said when she was a
young girl just about every house had an altar. Where she lived, she said very family had a
little altar and you would go and eat a little bit here and a little bit there. You would just go
down the road. But now, not too many people have altars.
-Reb: And the custom still holds, I suppose, that when you having the altar it's either because
you have a special request or it's in thanksgiving for something?
L5: Yes, it is an act of love and labor. My mother always said that a lot of people would say,
"That's too much work, I can always give a donation." But mama says that St. Joseph wants
your hand and your work. I believe in him, he has never turned me (a request) down.
Reb: That's wonderful. (Discussion regarding a book on St. Joseph Altars by Ethelyn Orso
which Mrs. Salvaggio had. For complete reference please see interview with Mrs. Sally Ponzio
Lampo.)
LS: The breads on the altars represent various things. The big bread represents the "crown of
thorns" and the "fish" for the fishes and loaves.
Reb: What°s the significance of the boiled eggs and crumbs on the pasta? Of course, I know
--.that it is during Lent and you can't serve meat in the sauce, but is there any particular
significance to that.
LS: As you said, you are not supposed to have meat during Lent, but you can have the Easter
egg and a lot of Easter decorations because the spring is coming and this represents "new life."
The crumbs represent the sawdust from St. Joseph, the carpenter.
Reb: How old were you when you first started helping with the St. Joseph's Altars? Does it
seem like all of your life and what is the first thing you remember helping your mother do?
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LS: I guess I was about twelve or thirteen. Doing things she told me to do. My aunt from
Houston and I were talking about St. Joseph Tables and when I was about fourteen or fifteen,
my mother said that we had to wash all of those greens (that we used). My aunt and I wash
them and it happened that my mama's sink was stopped up so we had to get all of this water
(out of the sink) and take it outside. And I remember the north wind was blowing and cold,
but anyway, we washed big tubs of greens. And the next day the line was still stopped up so
mama washed all of the cup towels, getting ready for the day and the feast. I don't think mama
had a dryer, so I put all the cup towels on the (clothes) line, and that north wind was just
beating them. So we were through, we were ready, we had everything ready to go for the
rosary that night. We had cleaned house and everything and I went to take my bath and I said,
°'What is wrong with me?" I was just real all over...I had gotten the measles.
Reb: Oh, no!
LS: And it's a wonder, I clidn't die because I was out in that cold, and my hands were wet
that day.
Reb: And it could have gone into pneumonia.
LS: Yes, and that night Mama said, "I don°t want you to be around any people, because
you'll be around kids and I don't want you to give them the measles." So she stuck me
upstairs and I couldn't come down. Iwore along-sleeved blouse.
Reb: What did she do for you?
LS: I just stayed in bed and kept good and warm and she gave me a lot of hot tea.
Reb: Did she keep you in a dark room?
LS: Yes, I stayed upstairs and everybody waned to know what had happened to me>
Reb: Are there any other customs that stand out in your mind other than the St. Joseph's
Altar that you or your family participate in?
LS: Well, I really don't know.
Rebe So, how did you and your husband meet?
LS: At a St. Joseph's Table. They interviewed us...Willie Pete Scarmardo wanted to know
how he met me and Anthony said," At a St. Joseph's Table." He said that was the best thing
that had ever happened to him...coming to the St. Joseph's Table. Really that's where we met.
Reb: And how old were you when you married?
LS: Sixteen.
Reb: It's been a good marriage, ever since, hasn't it?
LS: Forty-two years.
Reb: Speaking of home remedies, can you think of any that you still follow today?
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LS: No, not really.
Reb: Tell me more about your courtship with your husband? How long after you met did
you marry?
LS: A year.
Reb: Did he have to ask permission from your parents to court you?
L5: His daddy did. Then he would come to see me every night, rain or shine.
Reb: What kind of a wedding did you have?
LS: A large one.
Reb: A big Italian wedding? Was it an all day ceremony where it started with a Mass?
LS: Yes, at St. Anthony. I think it was at twelve o'clock noon. Then we had a big reception
at the Fellowship Hall. That was the best we've ever had. We had the works: barbecue and
everything.
Reb: Did you marry at noon after Mass?
LS: Yes, Father Bravi married us.
Reb: Did you go on a honeymoon?
LS: Yes. We went to Laredo. At that time that song, "Streets of Laredo." was really
popular. That's when we decided to go. We had a nice time.
Reb: When you came here, after your marriage, did you come to a nice home of your own?
LS: I lived with mother-in-law in that big white house over there. We lived there nine
months, while we were building this home.
Reb: How many children do you have?
L5: We have three: Gathan, our oldest, our daughter Anna Phillapello and our youngest
-"Mitt. Mitt is short for Matthew. At that time it was customary to name your first son after the
father-in-law and then the girl came and she was named after my mother-in-law and when the
youngest came he was named after my dad
Reb: How many grandchildren do you have?
LS: We have four.
Reb: Is farming your husband's main occupation? Are you farming cotton?
LS: Just cotton.
Reb: That seems to be the major crop out here. Have these recent rains bothered your fields
pretty much?
LS: Yes, he worries quite a bit because he needs to get started doing work.
Reb: Where did you go to school?
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LS: I used to go to school across the fence where mama lived We had a country school out
there.
Reb: This is in Burleson County?
LS: Yes, I went there up to the seventh grade and then I went to stay with my sister in
Houston where I went to Catholic school. I went to St. Joseph's School in Houston and to
Holy Name.
Reb: Did you finish high school at that Catholic school?
LS: Then I came back and went to Caldwell, where I finished up. Because the roads weren't
any good to get to Caldwell the bus would go just so far and that was it. And so my sister sent
me to stay with my older sister and then after we got the highway through there I came back
home.
Reb: When your father-in-law, Gathan Salvaggio, came over did he farm pretty much in the
same area where you all are now farning?
LS: Yes, this was tus land here.
Reb: And your family, did they farm also? And did both families raise cotton?
LS: My daddy raised cotton, cows, alfalfa, everything.
Reb: And did you have a nice kitchen garden, as well?
LS: Always. My father-in-law loved to fool with the garden and my husband did, also. I
always think of my father-in-law because he could raise the most beautiful eggplants. They
were just beautiful. I always tell my husband. We put in cucuzza (Italian squash), too. This
past yeaz they didn't do so good, the yeaz before we had worlds of them.
Reb: Have you any favorite recipes you would like to mention other than those used for the
St. Joseph' Altar? Did you make your own pasta in your family?
LS: Not really. My mother didn't make pasta too much. Maybe she did when I was real
small. I°ve heard mama talk about making the noodles...like the flat noodles.
Reb: Anything else you can think of about your life out here in Steele's Store. I am so
pleased to talk with you about your well-known St. Joseph's Altars. I have attended two and
they are something to remember. I have an article that came out in the Bryan paper, "The
Eagle.'° and it mentioned these altars, could I get some pictures from you to put into my book
LS: Yes. I have pictures you may use.
Reb: I also would like to ask your pernission to use parts of this interview in the book I plan
to write on the Italians of this area. Would that be all right?
LS: Yes.
Reb: Thank you so much for your time and this wonderful information.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Pauline Scarpinato Stratta (P5)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 13, 1992
Steele's Store, Texas
The first part of this tape was mistakenly taped over, it contained the following information:
Pauline was formerly a Scarpinato. She was born May 20, 1911 across from the old Bryan
Air Base, out from the city limits of Bryan, Texas. Her mother was Mary Catalina who
married Pete Scarpinato and they both came from Sicily.
PS: Mama was twenty-four years old so she stayed four or five years before mama and
daddy married.
Reb: When did your father come over, do you know?
PS: Mama was nineteen years old and daddy had akeady been here.
Reb: Where was your father born?
PS: In Sicily. Daddy was about sixty-five when he died.
Reb: Where was your mother born?
PS: Same place as daddy...Sicily. She had two brothers: Billy and Pete Catalina. They were
all together. And when mama came here she wasn't old enough. She had to have a chaperone.
She was nineteen years old.
Reb: So then, she married your father here? .Did they marry at St. Joseph's Church?
PS: Not certain which church.
Reb: But your father came first?
PS: Yes.
Reb: They came, they were married here and then you were born?
PS: There were four or five older than me. I was born over in Fountain Switch and raised in
Steele's Store. I'm the fifth child.
Reb: How many children were there altogether?
PS: Eleven, but two died, one sixteen months and one eight months.
Reb: How did you meet your husband?
PS: You should say how did he meet me? We went to a wedding, but I didn't see him, but
he saw me. He started asking some of my friends, "Who is that girl?" "That's Pauline
Scarpinata." The next morning he and his daddy were right here in the yard. I said, "Mama,
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who are these people?" I was ironing and I didn't know who they were and daddy and mama
were here. I said, "Come on in." I still didn't know who they were. I kept on ironing, and
they had to wait eight days before they got their answer.
Reb: Was that traditional or was that just what your family chose?
PS: No, that was traditional to wait eight days. In about three months time we were married.
Reb: What was your husband's first name?
PS: Sonny Stratta. He used to sing in the choir in the church and was in the Knights of
Columbus, fourth degree, he was in everything. We were married fifty-six or fifty-seven
years.
Reb: What was your wedding date?
PS: January 6, 1935. Do you know where you lived around here?
Reb: No, I didn't live here my grandmother lived here. Her name was Termini. She came
from Lascari in Sicily. As a matter of fact, there is a village named Termini in Sicily, not too
far from Cefalu on the coast Her father°s name was Domenico, but they were not here too
long. They moved on back down towards Galveston. That's why you didn°t know them.
PS: That°s why we didn°t know them. I don't believe my mama and daddy knew them.
Reb: My mother isfull-blooded Italian, she was born in Italy and my daddy was born in
Dickinson. His mother and father were full-blooded Sicilians. He isfull-blooded but he is an
American.
PS: Just like us. We weren't born in Italy, all of us were born here.
Reb: Yes, so you are of Italian descent....one hundred percent Italian descent, but you are
American. bur as far as blood goes we're full-blooded You are married and have three
children, two daughters and one son. Then you two are brother and sister. Tell me something
about when you were growing up around here. I suppose you went to the Steele's Store
school?
PS: We went to Stone City school, after it was closed we went to the Steele's Store school. I
graduated from the seventh grade.
Reb: Tell me something about school when you were at the Steele's Store school.
PS: Mean boys. They would put some books in their pants (before spanking). The teachers
were so nice.
Reb: Where I grew up the boys did the same thing. They're the same the world over.
PS: They were so old and in classes with the young ones.
Reb: We did, too. We had big old tall boys in the first grade. You probably had one large
room for classes for a while, didn't you? They are the same the world over.
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PS: For a while we did and then we had smaller rooms for classes.
Reb: What kind of games did you kids like to play at that time?
PS: Oh, I loved my ball...basketball that was my favorite. We played baseball.
Reb: I guess the kids didn't know anything about bocci ball then, did they? That was
.probably the old-timers. Did they play very much of that out here in Steele's Store?
P5: Bocci ball? Yes, in the different yards.
Reb: Speaking of games..did they play much briscola, too?
PS. Oh, yes.
Reb: What about church services. Where did you go for church services? Did you go into
Bryan for church?
PS: We used to go in the wagon, we had umbrellas, we had seats in the wagon. We had
two, three seats in the wagon and we used to go to Bryan. Then sometimes we'd go to church
at Steele's Store.
Reb: There was a building attached to it, wasn't there?
P5: It was separate. (Later purchased by her brother and is located on his farm and used as a
shed.)
Reb: And is it still there? Yes. How old do you think that building really is? ('The brother
started to school in it when he was seven years old.)
PS: We used to have picnics over there and we used to take you (motioning to brother who is
seventy-two years old. (This little building is located on Sandy Point Road about a mile from
PS's residence. It is the last building before you get to the Brazos River.)
Reb: Would the priests come from St. Joseph's Church out here? I guess that later they came
--from St. Anthony's Church?
PS: Father Bravi married us.
Reb: Before it would have been Father Patillo?
PS: Father Patillo (was here) and then Father Bravi.
Reb: Was Father Bravi with St. Anthony's Church? What do you remember about your
..house, your mother's cooking and the way you lived. What do you remember about your
early growing up days? Did she (your mother) do a lot of baking?
P5: Homemade pasta.. We had that machine to put the dough in like a pasta machine.
Mama used to cook pasta with sugar, pasta with fava, and pasta with collard greens. Daddy
used to love it. We had chickens and hogs, and we had all of that.
Reb: And you probably had a big kitchen garden, too? What vegetables did you cook out of
that kitchen garden, more than any others.
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PS: Collard greens, tomatoes, and finocchio.
Reb: What about okra.
PS: Okra? Oh, yes.
Reb: Someone said this morning that they got so tired of okra from the garden.
PS: We had cucuzza.
Reb: Do you remember your mother making her own tomato paste or tomato sauce?
PS: Yes.
Reb: Did they dry it outside.
P5: They'd cook it a little bit and put it in a bowl and keep stirring it. Seems like it was too
strong.
Reb: Yes, I can remember it would make your gums itch.
PS: We made our yeast.
Reb: How did you make your yeast?
PS: After I married I used to make my own yeast and support my uncle.
Reb: Tell me how you made your own yeast.
PS: I would buy hops, which came in a little sack, and we would boil it and make a tea from
it. We'd make about two cups and then added cornmeal and mixed it all up and made little
patties and dry it up. And then one yeast (cake) would make (leaven) for about five pounds of
flour.
Reb: Well, I am so glad to find that out because I haven't been able to find anybody who
could tell me how the yeast was made. Where did you get the hops?
PS: From the drugstore.
Reb: None of the hops was raised from around here?
PS: No, I would ask and couldn't find out where they got if.
Reb: Hops is what they use in making beer. Did you ever work with the yeast starter?
PS: No, I never did. Now they have it in packages.
Reb: Fleischmann°s yeast.
PS: That°s all I use now. I make the ricotta cheese, but you have to have that Junket tablet to
make that.
Reb: But, now that's another thing I was going to ask you. Before the Junket tablets came,
what did you use?
PS: I used to fill that little gland from the rabbit. We used to call it a borsa (which means
"pocket" in Italian). They would fill that with milk and let it get sour. Then they would cut a
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little piece and put it in the milk and that would clabber the whole pot of milk and they would
make the cheese. But I never did use it.
Reb: But only from the rabbit?
PS: From the rabbit, that's what I remember. They used to have something like that.
Reb: It was a gland somewhere up in here (motioning to the neck)? And would they clean
that gland out and put the milk in it?
PS: And put the milk in that and it would be just like Junket tablets.
Reb: And how long would they let the milk sit in there before it was ready to use?
PS: They kind of let it stay about a week or so because it had to get hard.
Reb: Would that milk have to be warmed or heated before putting it in there?
PS: Sure did.
Reb: And then when you had this gland, did you just keep it in the room or did it have to be
kept cold?
PS: Yes, in the icebox.
Reb: What about making bread? Did your mother make her own bread?
PS: Yes, she baked in a wood stove. She would make a big loaf like that. The pan was that
big and she could fit four loaves in that. Yes, she used to make bread all of the time. With
nine kids, sometimes she would go out into the field and pick cotton a little bit.
Reb: I don't know how they had all the energy in those days. Tell me about the flood, now.
I guess your earliest remembrances would be of the one in 1912 or 1913?
PS: The water came right to that picture right there (pointing to a picture on her wall). This is
a separate building, here we had two rooms, one room here and one room there and two big
-rooms there and the water came up to the windows to the top of those curtains. And mama had
a trousseau ready for my oldest sister she got the trunk and put it all on the table. After a few
:- days we came out of the gin house the trunk was all turned down and open and all the
dresses....A little bit more it would have come into the gin, which is high.
Reb: So, you were about two years old?
.PS: I imagine so.
Reb: Well, she was born in 1911, May 20, 1911 and if it was 1913 she would have been two
years old. You sure it's that one and not the 1921?
PS: 1921. I don't remember 1913.
Reb: 1921.
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PS: That's right. After that we had another small one, but it didn't come into the house.
Bales of cotton floated away, and hogs. The bale of cotton had already been sold but the
money had not been collected
Reb: Many people suffered from those floods. And that's the reason so many people left,
some went to Dallas, some to Houston and to Galveston and they could not stand staying
where the floods were a threat.
PS: Dad bought the fifty acres, that's all he had, just remained here and raised all nine kids
here.
Reb: Well, you know that took a lot of courage to stay year after year when you knew that
this was a possibility each year. Is there anything else you can think of about the history of
this area.
PS: all our neighbors were pretty good, we had stores here. We only went to town once a
year. Then there was a man who used to come around with clothes.
Reb: A door to door salesman?
PS: With material and stuff.
Reb: But other than that it was many, many months before you would make a trip into
Bryan?
PS: Sometimes they would haul a bale of cotton in the wagon and go sell and just he would
go with two mules.
Reb: Do you ever remember an interurban in this area anywhere, the one rail car that would
go back and forth, called the Jack?
PS: It was like a streetcar. Yes, it used to stop right there if anybody wanted to get on.
Reb: And it was called the Jack?
PS: My daddy had a sister who used to live in Mumford and he would catch the train, Jack,
and get off in Mumford at my sister's house.
Reb: Would it stop in Bryan?
PS: No, it would stop in Hearne and around here.
Reb: Well, this is all I can think of, Mrs. Stratta. I am working on this history of the
Steele's Store settlers and when I get this all written up is it all right with you if I put some of
this information in that book.
P5: Yes.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Ethelena Salvato Zubik (EZ)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 13, 1992
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Ethelena, would you mind telling where you were born?
EZ: Steele's Store, Texas. Brazos County.
Reb: And do you mind telling me when you were born?
EZ: I was born June 1, 1927, about ten o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday.
Reb: Who are your parents?
EZ: Frank Louis Salvato, who died July 8, 1949 and Gussie Bonano Salvato, who died
February 20, 1991. My mother was born in Brazos County. Daddy was born in Burleson
County, Texas, July 6, 1897 (Frank L.). My mother was born in Brazos County at Steele's
Store community.
Reb: What about your father in Burleson County?
EZ: Where was he born? It was off of what is now known as FM #SOS. When we were
younger he showed us the house where he was born but it is no longer there.
Reb: What about your grandparents?
EZ: Okay, my grandfather, my paternal grandfather, was Francesco Salvato. He was born in
Italy, I imagine in Poggioreale, I'm not sure, on May 19, 1855. And he came to America in
1890 at the age of thirty-five. With him was his son, Calogero (Carlo). He was about ten
years old.
Reb: And who else came with him?
EZ: They came by themselves.
Reb: The father and the one son.
EZ: In 1891, his wife came over, my grandmother, Mary Alouie (Louis) translated to Louis
later on.
-Reb: Was that her surname?
EZ: Yes, she came over in 1891, she was either thirty-one or thirty-two. She was born in
1859 in Poggioreale. She came to America in 1891. With her were her son, Anthony L.,
approximately seven years old, her daughter, Josephine, five years old, and her daughter,
Lena, about a year old I have the name of the ship that they came on. Uncle Tony came over
on the "Florio." I hunk that was the name of the vessel.
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Reb: That°s when your father came over?
EZ: No, that was my uncle. Mary Alouie and Francesco were my paternal grandparents.
Reb: But now, who is it who came over on the "Florio?"
EZ: Okay, now Antonio came over with his mother...my grandmother would have been on
this same ship.
Reb: So, they came over on the "Florio." Just their one son came over?
EZ: No, the three children: Tony, Josephine and Lena. Tony was about seven years,
Josephine, five years, and Lena, about one year old.
Reb: Now, the date of their arrival?
EZ: I have here that grandmother came to America in 1891. This is a copy of my uncle's
Declaration of Intention to (Become an American Citizen).
Reb: That's for naturalization.
EZ: Yes. Now, he said that he arrived at the Port of Galveston of the State of Texas on or
about the 20th November 1890, but 1891 was what was told to me, but this is what the
document says.
Reb: Now, what about your maternal grandparents?
EZ: My maternal grandmother was Mary Scardino Bonano. She was born November 1,
1857. I have Italy but it was probably Sicily. My maternal grandfather was.....let me back
up, John Mike Perrone, that was her first husband, he is the grandfather of Josephine Perrone
Patranella. He's the gentleman who died at sea. Grandmother marred twice out of necessity
because she came over with two of her little children and husbands number two and three died
a short tune after they were married. Then she later married Joe Bonano, who was a widower
with three small children. Grandpa Joe Bonano was born July 1, 1855 in Italy or Sicily,
probably Sicily. They had a little boy, Pasquale, and Gussie, March 4, 1901 and she died
February 20, 1991. She will have been gone a year next week.
Reb: So, they just had the two children?
EZ: My grandmother had Uncle Paul and Uncle Mike, on the Perrone side, and then my
Grandfather Bonano had Uncle Ross and Uncle Tony Bonano and Aunt Josie...Josephine. So
mother had, living in later year, she only had half brothers and sisters on both sides. One of
those brothers died when he was four.
Reb: The paternal grandfather arrived in Galveston in 1890, so when did they come up to the
Steele's Store azea.
EZ: I am not real sure. I think they worked their way here.
Reb: The maternal grandpazents...I need to know when they came in.
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EZ: My mother always led me to believe my grandmother landed in Galveston, but in talking
to Josephine Perrone Patranella she said....and I'm not sure whether that ship record that you
found that John Paul Perrone died at sea..whether it landed at New York first. She said that it
probably landed in New York first and that grandma probably came by train or another ship to
New Orleans.
Reb: That could very well be. The record that I have is the record where they entered New
Orleans.
EZ: She told me she thought they arrived in New York, but mother always said New
Orleans.
Reb: You see it's possible they could have entered New York and taken another boat down to
New Orleans, but on the ship's manifest it shows the departure from Sicily.
EZ: So, I imagine they arrived in New Orleans. And I believe that ship was the "Plato" and
he was listed as Giovanni.
Reb: Mary Scardino Bonano was born November 1, 1857 and died 5 August 1933.
EZ: She died in the Steele's Store community. She died at home. And my maternal
grandfather was born July 1, 1855 in Italy/Sicily. He died February 9, 1919. He died in
Houston or Stafford, Texas, but he was buried here in Bryan at Mt. Calvary Cemetery.
Reb: Now, so this covers your maternal grandparents and your paternal grandparents.
EZ: My Aunt Josephine Bonano was born in Sicily, also, she may have come in....that
Josephine that we saw (on the records) may have been her.
Reb: I have the death date of your father, but I don't have his birthdate.
EZ: He was born July 6, 1897 in Burleson County and is buried in Bryan at Mt. Calvary
Cemetery. He died July 8, 1949. Gussie Bonano Salvato was born March 4, 1901 in Brazos
County, in Steele's Store, (formerly) "Mudville." She died February 20, 1.991 in Bryan.
Mother and daddy were married December 24, 1919 at St. Joseph's Church in Bryan.
Reb: How many brothers and sisters do you have?
EZ: I have two sisters and we were three sisters.
Reb: Would you like to give me their names?
EZ: Mary Salvato Bush, born June 17, 1922 in Steele's Store and Josephine Salvato Varisco
born August 27, 1924, also in Steele's Store.
Reb: Can you tell me what you know about the early lives of your grandparents?
EZ: It is my understanding that they were farmers over in Sicily and times were real bad and
they decided to try how things were in this country. They started out farming as tenants for
other people and I think that my grandfather, Francesco Salvato, worked for the father of
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Milton Sims, a Mr. Sims who had a plantation out there in Steele's Store community. And
little by little they began to purchase land of their own and went into business for themselves. I
understand that times were pretty band when they first got here and they had pretty rough times
here, I know.
Francesco Salvato was born in Sicily. And, of course, the wives didn't work, they stayed at
home with the family, but my Grandfather Bonano, my maternal grandfather, also worked for
different people and I think maybe he was helped by Domenic Angonia, who was the father-in-
law of my dad°s brother. He was also in the farming business. They also had successful
times. Little by little they made it, I guess, they bought land of their own.
Reb: Do you remember stories they might have told you about the flood experiences that they
had.
EZ: I remember my mother telling me that she got married in 1919, so she was at home when
the flood of 1913 came and her father who was....I mean her parents, who were Mary
Scardino Bonano and Joe Bonano, lived in a two-story house, which was about a fourth of a
mile where my mother lived....Sandy Point Road and Highway #50 intersection. I remember
my mother saying that the water rose so quickly that they all rushed upstairs and my
grandmother had baked a lot of bread that day and my grandfather had received a big round of
cheese of some sort that he had ordered from New Orleans, and they took that upstairs and
that°s what they lived on for days. The flood waters...their ceilings were probably ten feet
(high)..but mother said the water rose about half way up the stairway, up to the second floor
and I can remember when we were kids that we could still see a water line there.
Reb: Is the house still there?
EZ: No, it's been torn down. But in 1921, my mother and daddy had been married for about
two years, they and my dad's brother and his wife lived on the Sandy Point Road which is FM
#1687. Now they used to call them double houses because they had living quarters on one
side and living quarters (on the other) and a wide hallway in the middle. And Aunt Lula and
Uncle Nick lived on one side and mother and daddy lived on the other and she said that the
water came and got into their house and it just ruined all their furniture and, of course, they had
cotton mattresses they would shake. And she said that they had just bought a five gallon can of
kerosene for their cook stove and she said everything smelled like kerosene from that which
had overflowed. But I remember that she and daddy kind of refinished some of the furniture
later, a wardrobe, and a sewing machine, but she said they lost practically everything in that
flood.
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I might add that they had a very small wedding because her father hadn't been dead very
long. And they went back home and had a dinner which my mother's sister-in-law helped
~,rtprepaze and they had baked cakes. Then she said they went to my paternal grandpazents home
and they lived with them for a year which was the case. After a year the children lived with the
husband's family for about a year until they got on their feet.
Reb: Your mother, Gussie, was born in Brazos County, in what is now the Steele's Store
community.
EZ: Yes, back in those days, it was probably called "Mudville." Did you, by any chance, see
the ruins of the old gin near the Angonia home? There used to be some bricks which were part
of the wall of the Steele's Store.
Reb: Where is that located?
EZ: You know where that old gin is right by the road?
Reb: Yes, is it across from that?
EZ: No, it's just south. As you are driving in from Highway #21...there used to be part of a
brick wall...so tall that was right next to it, just before you get to it (gin) in that same pasture
area. When my grandmother, Mary Scazdino Perrone Bonano...well, Perrone arrived in New
Orleans, after her first husband had died and was buried at sea, my mother told me she worked
-for a seamstress making buttonholes for a long time. And then she picked strawberries in the
.field, then she later came to Bryan because she had a sister living in this area. I say Bryan...it
was probably the Steele's Store community, I'm not sure, but that sister, a grandmother of
some of the Fazzinos...Katie, Viola and Mary Fazzino Scarpinata, their grandmother and my
grandmother were sisters.
=f -Reb: There is the picture I have of the Steele's Store Gin.
EZ: Oh, yes, it has crumbled a lot more now.
-Reb: Where, approximately would those ruins be.
EZ: Right here on this side of it. This is the Sandy Point Road or FM #1687 crosses right
here and the Angonias live right back here..well. it was right here and back in this pasture there
is an historical marker for the Steele family. Don Angonia can show you where that is.
Reb: There is a cemetery?
EZ: Well, right at that cemetery, that's where some of the Steele's are buried. This was their
property and that is where Steele's Store got its name.
Reb: You know, I have just gotten permission to put a Steele's Store marker (Texas
Historical Marker) there.
EZ: And are you going to put it in this area somewhere?
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Reb: I am going to put it farther towazd Highway #21 on the entrance to the Steele's Store
community.
EZ: There is a gray house across (looking at a map of the azea)..this is Highway #SON going
towazds Mumford and this Highway #21, back this way. Sandy Point Road intersects here ,
the Angonias live here and my mother°s house is right across on the opposite corner. Well, my
Uncle Nick and Aunt Lula's house was right over here. In fact, we grew up...I was born in an
old two-story house that was where that house is that is now painted gray. We lived
downstairs and Uncle Nick and Aunt Lula lived upstairs. The Steele's Store was right in here
somewhere and the historical marker is in that same acre right back in that pasture and that is
where the graves are, right in there.
Reb: We did see a little fenced-off area.
EZ: And I think the historical marker is there, too. They had a little ceremony when it was
dedicated, too, but I wasn't there.
Reb: I wasn't awaze that there was any marker there at all and with my work there with the
Brazos County Historical Commission nothing was ever said about there having been a marker
there.
EZ: This Mrs. Alford from Burleson County was instrumental in maybe getting that, if I am
not mistaken, but it is real interesting.
Reb: So what direction from the gin would that be? (Various landmazks are located on map)
Between Highway #21 and here are two dirt roads. The first dirt road is at the very beginning
of the Steele property and this (the marker) would be on the right hand side of the road, at a
point of 2.4 miles north on FM#50 from the intersection of Highway #21 and FM#50.
EZ: We decided that my Grandmother Perrone Bonano landed in New Orleans on the
"Plato." when the first husband died at sea. They landed in New Orleans.
Reb: Yes, she was married to John Marco Perrone who died at sea.
EZ: ...or Giovanni Mazco Perrone and she married husband number two in New Orleans and
he was either watering her mules and tripped and fell or a storm hit and something lut him on
his head, a limb or something, and he died as a result.. Then she married this other fellow
whose name was......either husband number two or three died of pneumonia a short time after
they were married, and then she married Joe Bonano.
Reb: Can you tell me of any stories which are real significant to you...something really
outstanding that you remember.
EZ: I can remember mother saying that when her father began farming for himself that he
would get these workers out of Bryan to work on the farm for him and they would board these
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people. Now don't ask where they lived, but my grandmother would cook for them at night
and, this Grandmother Mary Scardino Bonano, and when mother would get home from school
;she would have to help peel potatoes because grandmother would cook for as many as forty
people at the evening meal and the wives were in town and these men would come and work
on the farm.
Reb: Would these men live on the farm or commute every day?
EZ: I don't think they commuted every day because that would take too long, because they
would have to go to and from Bryan in buggies or wagons. I can remember mother saying that
after she and daddy were marred Daddy would be working in the fields plowing and mother
would have to walk and take his lunch to him, and that was several miles, I imagine. I can't
recall, I guess back in those days, I guess when we could have talked to them and they could
have told us things we weren't interested in all this and now I'm glad that I got Mother to tell
us as much as she did when her mind was still good.
Reb: Did she attend the Steele's Store School?
_EZ: Yes, she attended the Steele's Store School and I think she went as far as the fifth grade
and daddy went to the sixth or seventh grade. (Shows pictures of Mary's and Josephine's
::classes -sisters. Also, shows pictures of mother's class (Gussie) including teacher Lena
Tucker). This is probably about 1910 and there are quite a few of the people in that class. That
was her teacher, Miss Lena Tucker, and she said everybody was in a little one-room school
and I think that school was in the general area across the road from the ruins of the Steele Gin.
Reb: Would it be possible to either get a copy from you or for me to take it and have a copy
made? You could probably get a good black and white Xerox made.
-EZ: This was the old two-story house where my mother lived when the flood came and it got
up there. That's where her mother lived . That's a picture of me, I was in a little program in
Steele's Store School and that's a pink crepe dress with gold tinsel on it. I had curls and my
mama...I didn't want her to comb my hair because it would get tangled and she'd say, "I'll
give you a nickel and a kiss if you'll let me comb your hair." And I'd get a nickel and a kiss
for her to comb my hair. (Showing more pictures). There are some cute pictures. These are at
the cemetery. This is the old two-story house where my mother lived when the flood came and
it got up there. Her mother lived with my Aunt Annie and Uncle Mike Perrone. That's the
house....and that's the Steele's Store School. That's my uncle, Nick's wife, that's my
mother's father, that was my dad and mom years ago, and that's their uncle in Italy. These are
some of the relatives in San Angelo and some of my cousins.
Reb: Well, you certainly have a wealth of photographs.
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EZ: Now, this may have been at Steele's Store. That was that teacher, Ms Lena Tucker, and
that's a little girl, I think her name was Lena, it's listed on the back.
Reb: So she would be one of the early teachers?
EZ: Only one of the teachers, I don't know why they were taking those. But this is my
sister, Mary, with my mother's brother when she was real little. That's Mary and Josephine
when they were real little, Mary and Josephine and my mother's brother and Mary, and that's
me with my finger in my nose. And now they have on crepe paper dresses that they wore in
some program at school. But that was where Don Angonia and Anna Lee and their parents
lived, off the Sandy Point Road, Don's aunt, his daddy's sister and my daddy's brother were
married so we grew up together. That's Mary..that's Josephine. I don't have a baby picture,
anyway they got my picture when I was older.
Daddy and Uncle Nick farmed together and they also had a general store.. and daddy took
care of most of the farming operations and Uncle Nick ran the store.
Reb: And what was the name of the store?
EZ: Salvato Brothers General Store. Daddy took care of the farnung business and Uncle
Nick took care of the store and we would help out on Saturdays in the store. And then Daddy
also worked in the store on Saturdays. They did this until after my daddy died in 1949. I
think we still had the store when daddy died, then, of course Uncle Nick kind of looked after
both. And then we decided to sell the store and Mike Perrone rented it for awhile...but after
my dad, of course, Uncle Nick gave up the farming operations. I mean he gave up the store
and we still own the land, but of course, its leased out now. It's at the intersection of Sandy
Point Road and FM#50.
Reb: What were the living conditions at that time?
EZ: After the flood, they didn't live in the double house off Sandy Point Road, they lived in a
little two-room house near her parents' home. And I think that is where Mary and Josephine
were born and that's just north of that intersection with FM#1687 and FM#50. And then when
I was born in 1927 we lived in a two-story house with my uncle and aunt...Uncle Nick and
Aunt Lula lived upstairs and mother and daddy lived downstairs. And that°s right across the
street from the ruins of the Steele Gin. They lived there until about 1935. In 1935 they built
the two houses where my uncle and aunt lived and where mother and daddy lived and the
Angoruas built their house, all at the same time that summer. They moved into the house that
my mother and daddy lived...and my mother lived there until she couldn't live alone anymore,
and my dad until he died, and that°s at the intersection of FM#60 and FM#50, from 1935 until
now. The houses are still there.
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Reb: Do you remember anything about an interurban in that area?
EZ: I can remember mother talking about a train, the "Jack" or the old "Jack," as she referred
to it.
All I know was that it used to go to Hearne and I don't know where it went...whether it turned
around in the area or not. There's an article in one of the papers that mentions that old train.
Reb: I was trying to find about its route.
EZ: One of the articles that I was reading said that it had aturn-around place where it would
turn around and go back. Mother talked about people riding that train to go to Hearne and
maybe come back.
Reb: But that's some information I would like to get from you, if you have it.
EZ:.........And my mother did tell me that her mother came over from Italy once to visit her
daughter but then she went back.
Reb: I think many of them did this. There was more than one trip involved before they
settled in.
EZ: Yes, there is something in one of these articles. (Pause in the tape) .....and that little
table in the front entrance was his grandmother's and it closes to about that wide (gesturing)
and both leaves go down and he said that his grandma use do play dominos on that table.
We've had it refinished.
Reb: I could sit and talk for two hours.
EZ: I know it...Josephine Patranella and I sometimes we get to talking.
Reb: Ethelena, if you think of anything, please jot it down and let me know.
EZ: If I find something that I didn't tell you I'll call you and tell you.
Reb: Call me and maybe I can pick it up or we can just have a visit over the phone as much as
anything, but I really do. And you have no objection to my using some of this material in the
book?
EZ: No.
Reb: If anything involves dates or something that may be wrong I'll check those out with you
before so that I can be sure to get the right information.
EZ: I noticed something in this article with your picture and you were talking about Giovanni
Perrone coming over and, of course, you had been interviewing Josephine Patranella and you
said something about the Patranella family, I think you meant the Perrone family or maybe they
got it crossed up when they put it in the paper.
I need to get with Josephine Perrone and her son because I understand that they have lots of
information. She was going through some old stuff that they found in a trunk that my
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(belonged) to my grandmother. She found out that second or third husbands' name, because
they found a letter from Italy that was addressed to Mary Scardino Bonano and that's how she
found out one of those husband's name.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Sazah Perrone Fachorn (SF)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 13, 1992
Steele's Store, Texas
Reb: Please state your full name.
SF: Igo by Sazah Perrone Fachorn. I was born Mazch 8, 1920 at Steele's Store, Texas.
Reb: Who were your pazents?
SF: Carlo Colagero and (Bessie) Biaggio Cotropia. My mother's maiden name was
DiPalermo. Both of my parents were born in Corleone, Sicily.
Reb: Do you have a birthdate for them?
SF: Yes, my father was born April 25, 1865 and my mother was born on March 15, 1878.
Cazlo died June 26, 1943 in Hearne. My mother died December 11, 1940 in Bryan Hospital.
They were married in 1893 in Bryan by Father Pelnaz at St. Joseph's Church on June 8, 1893.
Both were born in Corleone.
Reb: When did they arrive?
SF: I think my mother told me she was on the same ship as Mr. Antonio Varisco. That is
Bessie and her widowed father. She was thirteen yeazs of age at the time. Carlo, my father,
came to New Orleans January 6, 1891. I am not sure that my mother arrived in New Orleans.
Do you know the name of the ship that the eazlier Variscos arrived on?
Reb: No, I don't. Do you remember any stories that they might have told you about their trip
on the ship? Did they stay in New Orleans for awhile before coming to Bryan, do you know?
5F: Not very long because he arrived in 1891 and he was married in 1893.
Reb: Did he work in the sugar cane fields like so many of them did?
SF: I presume so.
Reb: Do you have any idea how he traveled from New Orleans to the Brazos Valley?
SF: On the train.
Reb: Do you remember anything about that trip and where it originated?
SF: Well, you know there were some Italian people here already and he evidently had gotten
a letter or knew to meet these people here that were related to him.
Reb: But do you think he caught the train from New Orleans to Bryan?
SF: I think he took a ship to Galveston...some of them did that, don't you think?
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Reb: Yes, I know that some did and some came by wagon train and I just wondered whether
he did.
SF: 'T'hat°s right, there wasn't a "choo-choo" train.
Reb: See, they were building the railroad tracks at that time.
SF: For some reason I think they came to Galveston.
Reb: And some of them came to Galveston and then up the Navasota River by boat.
SF: I am really not sure. (Examining papers) So you see his name was Colagero Cotropio.
From their marriage records Judge Baron shows....see, they had written Cazlo, because that's
the way they called him. Calogero, and mother would be Biaggia, instead of Bessie.
Reb: How faz back can you go? Can you remember any stories that they might have told you
about how things were when they got here?
SF: Things, I know, were difficult because of the language, for sure. And I remember them
mentioning the man in Bryan who helped them....Saladiner. They would go to his store to
buy things and he was really an interpreter for most of them.
Reb: Did they come and buy property outright? Or did they work for somebody until they
could earn enough money?
SF: When they came a Mr. Sims owned a lot of land and they rented land from him. I don°t
know whether it was paid for by money or by sharecropping. I don't know how many yeazs
they did that and then they bought the same land that they had rented. In this case, my father
had a sister that lived in Chicago and he thought there was no land to buy here, evidently most
of it had been taken up, and his sister had been writing to him and said that ,"Oh, we have
some lovely land outside the city." so he took the train and went to Chicago and when he
heazd all about the Mafia bunch up there, all the crime, he changed his mind and said, °'I don°t
want to raise my family here." So he came back. In the meantime, Mr. Sims had missed lum
and asked, "Where did you go?" He said that he had gone to Chicago to look for land. Mr.
Sims replied, "Well, I'll sell you this land that you've been working." Sothis is when he
bought the land. But he had made a trip to Chicago.
Reb: Do you remember any favorite stories they might have passed on to you about their
lives either here or in Sicily?
SF: He always said that the land there was a good fertile land..there was nothing wrong with
the land, it was the government that they did not like. They were taxed...they had to give
money to be able to stay and they called it blackmail....coerced, but the land was wonderful.
The reason they went the second time was because his mother was still living there in Sicily.
His father must have passed away. They would write to him, they were lonesome for him and
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wanted him to come back..."everything is better." They hadn't bought the land yet, at that
time, when they went back, but they had accumulated some tools. He sold his plows and
everything and they got enough money to go back (to Sicily). They only stayed a year or
maybe a year and a half...to finish a cmp they had started there in Sicily, and the little children
(my oldest, sister and my oldest brother) were toddlers and they missed their cornbread. They
didn't have cornbread over there...and they cried for that . They found out that it wasn't any
better there than it was the first time..so they came back and that was when Mr. Sims sold the
property to them.
Reb: How many members are in your family?
.SF: My mother had twelve children all together. Two died as babies, ten grew up. My
oldest brother, Sam, was in World War I and he died at Ft. Dix, New Jersey of influenza. He
had written a card that they were about to go overseas and he would always ask how they were
making the payments on the land. He was eighteen when he left to go into the Service and he
was always worried about their paying for the land. He was the oldest, so I didn't know him.
He died in 1918 and I was born in 1920. If I had been a boy I would have been named Sam
like he was, but Sara was close, or Salvatora, was as close as they could get. But I used to
hear a lot about it. Then I have four sisters and four more brothers and two sisters are dead, at
this time, and one more of my brothers who was next to the oldest. So I have three brothers
and myself who are living, and I am the youngest and that makes a difference.
Reb: Do you remember them (her parents) talking about how the living conditions were when
they came?
SF: Well, they worked hard...mother worked in the field, even when expecting
~:: children...and she picked cotton and as years went by she stayed home more and did the
cooking and the washing and that kind of thing. The floods were bad and they lived through
the 1913 flood and the one in 1920. During the 1913 flood, they were living in a little frame
house with an open roof. They had to pull the doors down to put on the rafters and get all the
children up there. And she always had baked bread and she put the bread up there. I don°t
know how long they had to sit up there...they all survived. They always talked about the
people who came around in boats later to rescue them. But I don't flunk they ever got into a
boat, I think it was mostly for food, if they needed food and by that time they were able to get
down from the rafters.
Reb: It seems that so many didn't want to leave their houses, even though they were up and
dry, they didn't want to leave their possessions.
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SF: And then in 1921..........we have a picture of the house built before 1921, actually
before I was born, it was a story and a half built because of flooding also it had about 10-12
steps to get up to the house. It was built high on concrete bases...they were building to
withstand the flooding.
Reb: Which meant that they were going to try to tough it out.
SF: Right. And so then in 1921 there was this flood. I was one year old and I can remember
my older brothers and sisters kind of thought it was fun, I guess, and they had me in a
washtub in the house, floating around like I was in a boat. And years later I could see the
watermarks inside the house. It came into the house even though it was on stilts on those
concrete blocks.
Reb: Still this didn't discourage them.
SF: It didn't discourage them but we had the upstairs then.
Reb: When you were growing up where did you attend school? Did you attend school here?
SF: Yes, here at Steele's Store. I want you to see that school, I have a key for it. He has it
up for sale. The community leader want to sell it. In fact, there is an ad in the paper now and
they want to replace it with another building. Brazos County Schools gave this one to the
community for their Center and they have used it a little bit, not too much....well, the cherrucal
companies have used it every once in a while and have meetings. In fact, they had one last
week.
Reb: Do you remember what year they stopped having classes in the school?
SF: That I don't know. I'm sure it is in the records. But it was real new when I went to
school. Sam said it was built during the dry years, which would have been during 1925.
That°s about right because I was 5 years old when I started to school and that was the first
school I knew. In a primer.
Reb: How many grades did they have at that school? You eventually had to go to Bryan,
didn't you?
SF: Well, we moved to the Hearne bottom when I was in the 6th grade but I think eight
grades. Sam would know for sure, lus first wife was the Principal there for years. And he
would know, maybe, the year they quit having it.
Reb: Is this your brother? (referring to the gentleman who had just walked into the room)
SF: No, my husband, Sam.
Reb: Would it be possible to have a picture of the homestead? Does your daughter have that
picture?
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SF: If she does...I remember seeing it. Oh, yes, when I called her yesterday she said she
would look for it.
~~_ Reb: Yes, I would like to make a copy of it and perhaps include some of these in my book.
SF: The first news I remember was the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. I remember going
to the mailbox, I guess we were getting it delivered, and there was a black border around the
paper. It must have been in the late 20s or early 30s. I could have been seven or eight years
old. That stuck in my mind as far as national news.
Reb: I vaguely remember something about that.
SF: And also another thing about the black border. If we got a letter from Italy with a black
border then we knew that there was a death in the family.
Reb: Well, tell me some more about what you remember or about your growing-up days, or
just anything you can think of.
SF: Well, I remember my youngest brother..see, I'm the youngest and the brother that's just
younger than me...it was our job to get the milk cow and we'd walk our pasture. Daddy had
- bought a little 30-acre place across the road, pretty far away from our homestead, which was a
100 acres, and we'd go get that milk cow and just walk her home every evening and send her
back every morning. I can remember that.
Reb: And who would do the milking?
SF: My dad and maybe my mother and mostly I can remember my dad or the older brothers,
and I can remember the old barn that had pigeons flying around.
Reb: Well, did you make butter with this milk?
SF: Oh, yes
Reb: Ricotta cheese?
SF: Yes, yes and coming home from school, I always expected homemade bread and mama
always skimmed the cream off of the milk and that was delicious, that bread and the milk. My
oldest sister had two children, older than me. One girl is just about my age -four days -but
then when one of the younger babies was born, in fact she had twins, but one died, and I
missed my mother. My mother had gone to my sister's house to help her with the delivery and
the baby and I can remember that they didn't want to explain to me where she was and what
she was doing but I can remember missing her. They would have been about eight or ten years
younger than me, but then there was a little boy a little older. So I am not sure which birth it
was, but I can remember missing her. And while she was gone, no one was really
cooking...so we would get bread and slice it and put a fork behind it in front of the fireplace
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and get it toasted and then put, not butter, but for some reason, I remember going into this can
of lard and putting lard on this bread.
Reb: Tell me some more about your mother°s cooking. Did she have an oven outside to bake
bread?
SF: Yes, I remember a brick oven.
Reb: And how often did she bake bread? Was it once a week?
SF: I'm pretty sure because she would bake a good many loaves when she did. I can
remember the time when we no longer had the brick oven and we had the big wood stove in the
house.
Reb: What did she use for yeast or did she use something else for leavening?
SF: They are bound to have had some kind of yeast but they had to start the starter with
something else.
Reb: Did you have a vegetable gazden?
SF: Oh, yes, and I got so tired of okra. We had so much okra, but my father was the one
who loved orchazds. Now he had every kind of fruit tree there was.
Reb: And they would grow out here?
SF: Oh, yes, I can show you the exact spot...just a few yazds away.
Reb: What would he grow?
SF: He had peaches, grapes, apples, he even sent off...you know from those little
magazines...he'd send off for apricot...he wanted to see if they did all right. He clidn't try
oranges but almost anything else.
Reb: But would they grow?
SF: They would grow.
Reb: What about figs?
SF: Oh, yes, figs galore, and then the pecan trees that he planted are still living.
Reb: Strawberries?
SF: No, I don't remember strawberries, he may have tried them, but I don°t remember them.
Reb: Would your mother make jellies and jams?
SF: And we did home canning with the pressure cooker. After we had moved to the Hearne
bottoms which would have been in 1931 or I guess 1930, we lived right next to the railroad
track and we grew turkeys. Once there was a flock of turkeys on the track when the train came
by and just killed them instantly. Well, that was too much good meat to waste so we canned
turkey.
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Reb: Were there County Agents at that time, or did you mother just know how to do these
things?
;4> 5F: I feel that there were bound to have been County Agents of some sort. I don't know
how she would have known otherwise.
Reb: They used to call them Home Demonstration Agents a long time ago.
SF: And, also, to buy meat mostly you would have people come by and sell the meat off of
their trucks and you could buy a quarter or could go in together with someone and divide it.
Reb: Did they use salt to preserve the meat then?
SF: Salt, mostly. We did not have electric refrigerators, but we did have iceboxes. You
could buy the ice from the iceman who would come by.
Reb: But you really couldn't freeze.
SF: No, you couldn't freeze.
Reb: So, you would salt it down?
SF: Or else, just not buy so much of it, because they would come by pretty often. Now, in
the winter we would kill our own hogs, because we raised the pigs, but we never killed for
beef. We usually just bought until a lot later.
Reb: When you would kill the hogs, would you salt that meat down or smoke it?
5F: Smoke it, we would have smoked ham.
Reb: Did you have your own smokehouse?
SF: Yes, I can barely remember it, but I think we did because I can remember a smokehouse,
maybe it was a ?type of smokehouse. You know the kind that is more than one thing.
Reb: But that was generally the way to keep the pork?
SF: Yes, we would make sausage.
Reb: Did some people store their sausage in lard?
SF: Yes, in lard. The sausage was put in this big old crock, white stonewaze, and put into
lard.
Reb: And I guess a lot of good Italian sausage was made.
SF: Yes.
Reb: Would you dry some of the sausage, do you remember?
SF: No, I don't remember that.
Reb: What about making tomato paste or tomato sauce?
SF: Oh, yes.
Reb: Would they sun dry the tomato paste, do you know?
SF: I think so, not just a whole lot. Mother would put it in jazs a lot.
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Reb: What about making her own noodles or spaghetti or pasta ?
SF: Yes, I remember that, too.
Reb: Anything particular about the way she did it? I know that they didn't have pasta
machines at that time.
SF: They°d put it on a big old sheet. They may have had something to line it up to cut it; and
then you'd dry it...put it over something.
Reb: I remember that Grandma DePasquale used to put it over a large sheet and then she
would roll it around a broom handle and push it off the handle and it would be folded and then
cut it. She called it tagliarini and then shake it out and spread it to dry. What about things like
gnocchi or noodles do you recall?
5F: I don°t recall those so much.
Reb: What about polenta, the cooked cornmeal mush type?
SF: I don't remember it at all.
Reb: What about olive oil? Because olive oil has always been so expensive did they have a
supply of olive oil or did they use much olive oil.
SF: Oh, yes, they loved olive oil. I guess they would just buy it in the stores or this Mr.
Mike Adamo was a salesman who came from Italy. In fact, he was related on my father's side,
Michelangelo Adamo from Houston. He would come through and he would sell cheese, the
imported cheese.
Reb: llo you remember anything like salted baccala, the salted codfish?
SF: Yes, I think so. I know when they bought bananas it would be a whole stalk of bananas.
They would get the wagon and go to town, not that often, you know, because even if it was
once a month. They would get a big sack of flour, staples in quantities.
Reb: What were some of your favorite foods? Did you like everything?
SF: I liked everything, I just got tired of okra.
Reb: How did your mom fix the okra? Did she cook it with tomatoes or fried or in soup?
SF: It was in tomatoes, but it was just because we had it so often. You know, you ate what
was in the garden.
Reb: What about finocchio ? Did you raise finocchio a lot?
SF: Yes.
Reb: What kind of games did you children play or did you have much time for games?
SF: Well, I can remember the men playing with the horseshoes and, as faz as games for
myself, I only remember those at school like hopscotch and baseball and those type of games.
We would play hide-go-seek and those games.
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Reb: What about church? Where did you go for catechism classes?
SF: The same building that I am going to take you to that was the schoolhouse. On Sundays
,::f, we had church once a month. Now the priest from Bryan would come out. Father Bravi
would come out and he would bring a couple of Sisters with him.
Reb: So once a month you had CCD (Catholic Christian Doctrine) classes, as well?
SF: Right, and they would take turns about to eat at my mother's house or Mrs. Varisco's
house. So every other month we would have dinner. I think Nina can verify that. I am pretty
sure I don't think it was twice a month, but I do remember we used to take turns with the
Variscos in feeding them.
Reb: I suppose there were many Italian customs that were brought over from the Old
Country, many of which your family liked to keep?
SF: Yes, there is one feast day, and I don't see it done anymore, something about a fire. I
think I've read a little bit about it in Bible times. They would do this.
Reb: What was the reason for doing this, do you recall?
SF: I really can't. Was it because it was the end of the harvest? Well, anyhow it is
something more than just. ? I don't remember seeing much of it, but then on Ascension
Day we'd get up early in the morning and pick flowers before the dew dried off the flowers.
and that had something to do with Christ ascending into Heaven.
Reb: So they had to be picked at that time?
SF: Yes, early in the morning before the dew dried. Then, naturally you had Good Friday
when you had your mirrors covered and we fasted all during Lent.
Reb: Are there any other Italian customs that you can think of?
' SF: The St. Joseph's Altar.
Reb: Of course, that's one of the most prominent ones.
SF: Mother had several of those.
Reb: What about your early days of courtship? Did you follow any early Italian customs
when you and your husband were courting?
SF: Well, there never was any "one on one" date. By the time I came along I think they were
a lot more lenient than they were with the older children. So I could go out...I went to dances.
There was a CYO (Christian Youth Organization) group that had dances and Father Tim
Valenta was our sponsor at that time.
Reb: Where would those dances be held? Would they be in Bryan or would they be at this
(school) building?
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5F: Well, there were a few out here, but the ones I remember when I was a teenager, I lived
in the Hearne "Bottoms" and Father Valenta came out there and he also......see at that time the
little church out there was part of the Bryan church and the priest used to come there once a
month. It didn't have a pastor that lived there. There was an old building, kind of like a
grocery store and it was a two-story building and the dances were upstairs. And then we went
to weddings where they had these platform dances.
Reb: Platform dances?
SF: Before the platform dances you had the weddngs in a hall and these were outside. You
could go to a lumberyard and borrow the lumber and the family would build the platform and
after the wedding was over you could return the lumber. And so I went to several platform
dances. I mean wedding platform dances.
Reb: When your husband asked you to marry did you have to go through your family in
order....
SF: Well, he did ask my father, but he had already asked me because my father said, "You
didn°t have to ask me.'°
Reb: But it was still a formality.
SF: Yes, it was during World War II and he was on furlough from the 1Vlarines. He was my
first husband and so we mantled in 1944 and I had a wedding, not a big wedding. We just had
dinner at my sisters, my mother had died and my father had died by the time I got married, but
we were engaged while my father was still living.
Reb: And how long were you and your husband married?
SF: Twenty-eight years.
Reb: Now did you have children then?
SF: Oh, yes, two children...a boy and a girl.
Reb: And now, you and your present husband have been marred how long?
SF: It will soon be sixteen years. See, I was a widow for three and a half years.
Reb: Did you have any children with your second husband?
SF: No, we're past that age and Sam has two adopted children.
Reb: What was the name of your first husband?
SF: Perrone...Peno Perrone. Sometimes he was called P.A., Peno Anthony.
Reb: Is there anything else you can think of, Sarah, that stands out in your mind when you
think of your family and your parents coming over and setting up housekeeping here?
SF: Well, when my mother died, I was still single and I remember her really handing me over
to my older sister, Annie, which she was old enough to be my mother because she had children
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older than I was. So she was really my second mother and she died at the age of ninety-two.
She died about two yeazs ago. But even in the nursing home, this was not too faz back, she
-~ said, "Can I do something for you?" She was so used to sewing my dresses when I went to
school.
Reb: This was your older sister?
SF: My oldest sister. This was like the Italian families where the oldest always had to take
over when the mother was gone. Even though she was married at the time my mother died.
During all of the feast days: Christmas, Easter...we never had to be asked to go to her
house..that's where we were going.
Reb: You were expected to go and you wanted to go.
SF: Even after I was married with my children, she played the part of a grandmother to my
children since they didn't know their real grandmothers.
Reb: Well, it is wonderful how the family stayed together at that time. In this day and time,
through no fault of family members, we are all so spread out...for economic reasons.
SF: I remember Pope John saying at the Vatican Council that he was the oldest and he was
the one who was educated in his family. His parents made sure he had an education and it was
up to him to see that the others had schooling.
Reb: This was the case with my father. He was lucky enough to get a college education...he
went to A&M....and when he got out, during the depression years, he not only had us children
to take care of, but he had two brothers to put through A&M. They were his responsibility and
it was hard.
Reb: In this book I am writing about the Steele°s Store Italians, do you mind if I pick up
some of this information to put in there?
SF: I don't mind.
Reb: After the transcription of this tape is finished I will see to it that you receive a copy of
the tape and the transcription. I appreciate it so much.
SF: Something else I would like to tell you about the Bonano family. My present husband
was married to Lena Bonano. I really knew her from my childhood. Where I lived ...where I
grew up was just a farm over from here. Even after Sam and I married, her mother still lived
-~ across the street...Mrs. Mary Bonano. She is still living today, she is ninety-eight and will be
ninety-nine October 18 of this year (1992). Right now she is in Stafford because she had
broken her hip and so she is living with another daughter in Stafford. This is a picture of her
as a young lady...she was beautiful. Her sister, Lena Noto, from Stafford and this is with her
older sister, Mrs. Katie Cangelose. They don't have a picture of the house. Patricia, my
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stepdaughter, was telling me the picture burned when her house burned. She found these
pictures in the house across the street where Mrs. Bonano used to live. I remember this
house..it was off the ground, too and it was built right here where this house is, maybe a little
farther back.
Reb: This looks like a dress from the 1940s.
SF: Yes, it does, it's really not that old. She looks more like her older sister in this picture.
Mary Court Bonano's father was Julius Court. She is the oldest citizen of the Steele's Store
community. She was born in Steele's Store on October 18, 1893. Her mother was Margarita
Court. She had two sisters: Katie Cangelose and Lena Noto and her brothers: Joe, Charlie
and Lee. She is also the oldest member of St. Anthony's Church. Her husband was Ross
Bonano who was born January 12, 1887 in Sicily and died December 12, 1969. You can get
more information from Nena Court. My mother knew Mrs. Steele. I remember her saying that
Mrs. Steele was such a lovely lady. When the women were having their babies she would go
and act as their midwife.
Reb: I know that there were other general stores here besides the Steele's Store, but was that
the main store?
SF: Way back there I imagine it was the only one.
Reb: There were other stores, but I suppose they were later.
SF: Yes, they were later. Mr. Sims was another large plantation owner. My father bought
the land from him. The Steeles owned land closer to where the Angonias lived...near Sandy
Point Road. In fact, there is an old gin house there...ruins of an old gin house right at Sandy
Point Rd.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
s -Interview with: Mrs. Lula Mae Perrone (I.P)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 18, 1992
Bryan, Texas
Reb: Mrs. Perrone, your full name is Lula Mae Perrone?
LP: Yes.
Reb: Where were you born?
LP: In Steele°s Store.
Reb: Do you mind telling me what your birthdate is?
LP: October 1, 1915.
Reb: What were the names of your father and mother?
LP: John F. Cuchia and my mother's name was Mazgazet Cuchia.
- Reb: What was her maiden name?
LP: Scarpinato.
Reb: They later changed the spelling on their name, didn't they?
LP: It was supposed to be Cuccia but my dad wanted it that way. When he came to American
he changed it to Cuchia.
Reb: Where was your father born?
LP: In Sicily.
Reb: Do you know where in Sicily?
LP: Poggioreale.
Reb: What about your mother, where was she born.
LP: She was born there, too.
Reb: When did they come to the United States.
LP: My daddy came when he was single and stayed here about a yeaz.
Reb: Do you know about when that was?
LP: About 1909 to the United States.
Reb: Did anyone come ahead of him? Did you have any family before your father to come?
LP: My father came by himself.
Reb: Did your grandfather come over or grandmother....or just your father?
LP: Then my father stayed a yeaz and then he went back to Italy and got married. They had a
son, lus name was Frank Cuchia and after they had a son, my mother stayed there and my
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father came back to America after he married. My Uncle Joe went with my father the second
time my daddy went to America. My Uncle Joe, my mother's brother, was single so he went
with my father to America. My daddy stayed here in Steele's Store to work and to make some
money, so he could go back. But then my Uncle Joe went back by himself and told his sister
that my father told him for her to pack up and go to Texas, to Steele's Store. And so, what
happened was when my mother packed, he met a girl in Steele's Store, before he went back to
Italy and he liked her so he didn't tell my mother all these things. So when my mother got to
Steele°s Store my father was angry because she came but she told him what happened and she
couldn't go back.
Another friend, hula Fazzina, had a son the same age as my brother, born August 17, and he
was eighty years old this past year, 1991. So after my daddy stayed here, before my daddy
got married, he went to New York. Daddy had a sister living there.
Reb: Do you know where in New York?
LP: I have a little granddaughter living in Memck, New York. I guess her grandmother lived
there. My father stayed there a couple of years, to make money, and then he went back to
Italy.
Reb: He went back and forth a lot, didn't he?
LP: He sure did.
Reb: When they came in did they come in through New York first or did they come in
through New Orleans first?
LP: He probably went to New York, first, then took a boat down and came in.
Reb: Did he come in, then, through New Orleans?
LP: I believe the last time he came in through New Orleans.
Reb: A lot of them came in through New Orleans, as a matter of fact about 25,000. I have a
long list of the different names. Well, then, you were born in Steele°s Store?
LP: Yes.
Reb: So you grew up there. Can you tell me something about the early school there?
LP: I was seven years old, in the first grade, I guess. We had to walk to school at that time.
There was a little school there not far from our house, but that school is probably not there
anymore.
Reb: Well, there is that great big school. But you're talking about the one before that. Tell
me what you remember about going to school in Steele's Store.
LP: I remember "drop the handkerchief' and "jump the rope." Then we moved to Houston, I
was about eight years old.
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Reb: And you were in Houston about how long?
LP: About five or six years, and then we moved to Hearne. When I was twenty years old I
::; met my husband, John Perrone, and I moved back to Steele's Store.
Reb: What is your husband's birthdate?
LP: January 14, 1913.
Reb: And is he still living?
LP: No, he passed away in 1964.
Reb: Do you remember what date?
LP: July 11, 1964.
Reb: Where was he born?
LP: He was born in Steele's Store. He lived in Steele's Store all of his life and almost died
there. We were together twenty-eight years. We have four boys and seven grandchildren.
Reb: We talked about that "Jack" train. Tell me what you know about that train.
LP: I told you it was downtown Bryan, but it was in Steele's Store and I used to heaz my
daddy talk about it. It had two coaches and it went from Bryan and stopped in Steele's Store
and then to Hearne and back to Steele's Store.
Reb: So, it just made a circle?
LP: It went back and forth.
Reb: And how often would that have been...how many times a day?
LP: Probably twice a day. That time they didn't have transportation like they do today.
Reb: Would they take this train for shopping more than anything else?
LP: Yes, people didn't have any transportation to go shopping. They had grocery stores out
there in Steele's Store, but they couldn't get materials. At that time, they didn't buy their
clothes from a store, they bought material and made their own clothes.
Reb: When you lived out there in Steele's Store, did they have electricity at the time?
LP: Not when I was a girl and single. We had coal oil lamps and wood stoves to cook on.
When I married we had a kerosene stove, no electricity in 1936. I married November 24,
1936. There was no water in the house.
Reb: What about baking...did your stove have an oven?
LP: Yes.
Reb: Did you bake a lot of bread?
LP: Yes, at that time we didn't have any bakeries. We'd buy flour and make our own bread. ~~
Reb: Did you make light bread or French bread?
LP: Light bread.
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238
Reb: What about spaghetti and macaroni, did you make your own?
LP: Every Sunday I had spaghetti. We didn't go out like we do now. We didn't have
hamburgers, we didn't know what hamburgers were.
Reb: Well, your mother probably wouldn't have let you eat them anyway.
LP: We didn°t know what buns were.
Reb: What about pizza ? Did you know pizza then?
LP: My mother used to make faccia d'vecchio (sphengiuna~. My mother-in-law used to call
it faccia d'vecchio but my mother and daddy called it sphengiuni..
Reb: Is that what that means?
LP: The same thing.
Reb: Did you make your own tomato paste?
LP: Well, my mother used to raise tomatoes and she used to use those. They did use the
canned tomato paste. They are real small cans. Sometimes my mother used to cook tomatoes
and make them real thick and use that.
Reb: And so were these the years that you were living out there in Steele's Store? From the
time you were born until you were about eight and that's when you moved to Houston and you
were there about five years. Then you came back here and moved to Hearne and stayed there
from age fourteen until about age twenty. You married in 1926, moved to Steele°s Store and
stayed there until your husband died in 1964.
LP: My son had a service station in Bryan and he was burned in a fire trying to save a little
black boy. While he was in the hospital, he asked me when I was going to move to Bryan.
And I said that I didn°t know. I was staying with my son who lived in Bryan, he lives in
Baton Rouge now but his wife passed away way back. I was living with him, he was living in
Bryan. So that morning I got up, I didn't tell my son and his wife nothing about it, I was
going to the hospital to bring my son some pajamas. So, I took that road (29th St.) to go to the
hospital. At that time the hospital was at that other place so I took Carter Creek and there was a
sign there, "For Sale" and it was eight o'clock in the morning. Well, I said it has a sign there,
so I rang the doorbell and this lady came to the door. I said, "This house is for sale, isn°t it?'°
She said, "Yes.°° I said that I wanted to look at it. I looked at the house and it was early in the
morning and her daughter was still in bed. So I said, "Mrs. True, I want to buy this house."
°'You are Mrs. Perrone?" I said, "Yes." So I got into the car, went to bring my son his
pajamas, I didn°t tell him anything. I went back to my son who lived here with his wife and I
told them about this. "Where did you find a house at this time of the morning?" I said the
Lord must have done it, and that°s how I bought this house.
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239
Reb: And you've enjoyed it, I'm sure.
LP: I've enjoyed it. I've lived here about twenty-six years.
Reb: So you moved here into this house in 1966...about twenty-five years ago. What about
your husband's family, the Perrones, are you related to Josephine?
LP: No, that's a different set of Perrones. You mean, Josephine Patranella. She's my sister-
in-law.
Reb: She and your husband were brother and sister. What about church activities? When
you were living there in Steele's Store, where did you go to church?
LP: There was a small church there..they probably tore it down, they had a little community
church.
Reb: Was that the one near the old school? Was that the building near the old school?
LP: Yes.
Reb: That's been moved over to another location and I have seen it.
LP: Our pastor, Father Bravi, used to come from Bryan from St. Anthony's Church to come
out and say services.
Reb: Would he come out every Sunday?
LP: Every Sunday.
Reb: I remember now, it's Pauline Stratta's brother, Bill, who has that old place. He moved
it to his farm
LP: That's right.
Reb: I took a picture of it.
LP: That used to be the little church.
Reb: That°s right, the little church, that's what he said, exactly. Is there anything else you
can tell me about your life out there at Steele's Store? Anything that stands out in your mind
more than anything else? Since your husband was a farmer out there, what did he raise?
LP: Cotton, corn, maize.
Reb: Where did he take his cotton to be ginned there? Which gin did he use?
LP: Salvato's Gin.
Reb: About how many gins were out there at Steele's Store, at that time, do you remember?
LP: Just that one. We had the Varisco Gin, it was in Stone City. Not far from Steele°s
Store.
Reb: If Salvato's Gin used to be the old Steele's Store, then that was across from the old ~-
Steele Gin?
LP: Yes, you're right.
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240
Reb: Because that is what they showed me the other day.
LP: But there used to be the gin of Ward Mooring...the Ward Mooring Gin was on the other
side of my house. There were two gins right there. My husband would sometime go to the
Mooring Gin and sometimes he'd go to Salvato's Gin, but that Varisco Gin was still going on.
Reb: Do you have any early pictures of any of those?
LP: I should have some but I do not. The Mooring Gin is still out there, I believe. But they
are not using it. But I was a housewife when I moved out there to Steele's Store. I made
homemade bread, we had our own garden. We didn't go to the grocery store for everything.
One thing we bought was flour and Crisco, we raised everything and didn°t have to buy
everything. We, also, had vegetables.
Reb: Did you raise fava out there and finocchio ?
LP: Do you know fava and finocchio ?
Reb: Well, I'm Italian, you know.
LP: I used to do my own baking...like fig cookies and I used to do my own housework. In
those days we didn't have washing machines..we washed our clothes by hand or on the
rubbing board. And we used to hang them outside and bring them in and then I had to sprinkle
my clothes and iron them the next day. We don't have to do that now, anymore.
Reb: No, everything is permanent press.
LP: I cleaned house and we went to church every Sunday and we went to weddings.
Reb: That was your main social activity, the things you had to do with the church, wasn't it?
LP: Going to church, the church suppers, the baptisms and the funerals. Back then, people
had weddings in their homes, they didn't have halls. They didn't have too much money.
Sometimes they would go to the schoolhouse for that.
Reb: And you still have the lovely St. Joseph Altars, too.
LP: That's what I do every year. You know these fancy fig cookies?
Reb: The decorated ones?
LP: I do that.
Reb: I just learned to do those over at St. Anthony's a few years back.
LP: I do the cross and the walking cane and the Spero . I can do all that. Right now, in
another month I am going to Stafford. A cousin of mine makes an altar there and they want me
to help them. I am going to cook the fancy fig cookies to put on the altar there.
Reb: Well, they're delicious, I know.
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LP: I've been doing that since I was single, and still I help them make altars and make the
fancy fig cookies. I like to do it because my mother knew how to do it and I learned from my
>.~ mother.
Reb: Well, I think that's about it, Mrs. Perrone. Is it all right if I use some of this material in
my book for my writing? (She nods her head indicating "yes. ") And I will give you a copy of
this tape and the transcription of what you have told me. Thank you so much.
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243
Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Miss Mary Degelia (MD) and brother, Mr. Frank Degelia, Jr. (FD)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 18, 1992
Bryan, Texas
Note: This interview began with an informal discussion with Mr. Frank Degelia, Jr. regazding
eazly history of the area.
FD: Bryan Junction is on the left hand side before you pass Big Brazos (River). There used
to be one store there, the Cliff Harrison place which is now owned by Tony Varisco, around
1918. My daddy and them were working that land over there and, in the store they had a
counter, (so that) when you bought groceries and stuff you set them on top of the counter. Me
and some other little boys were playing and these boys pushed that counter over on top of me.
They thought I was going to die. I don't know if they broke my leg or what it was, but that
was in about 1918. We were living over there, we called that Bryan Junction, too. (If) you're
going to see Barney Cotrone, well, we were born right in there.
Reb: We met him (Barney Cotrone) at the cafe.
FD: Well, that's really where Bryan Junction is...but where Varisco is that's not Steele°s
Store.
Reb: Well, then where would Varisco be..would that be Bryan Junction?
FD: That's right. They called it Bryan Junction or Stone City.
Reb: (Looking at a map of the azea). They have it in two different places. They have Stone
City here and Bryan Junction there.
FD: Well, I'll tell you where Varisco lives, I believe that used to be Stone City, because
Bryan Junction was down here. Kind of like a little community, and Grandpa and them used
to live on that side and that was way back in pre-1900s.
Reb: I guess many people referred to this azea as Steele's Store?
FD: Well, right there where you call Bryan Junction and Varisco lived, go out a little farther
about a mile and a half and there was a big plantation owned by Mr. Milton Sims and then you
go a little further and that's where Nick Salvato and Frank Salvato used to run a store, you call
that Steele's Store. They got a real old gin, Steele's Gin, and then you go down about a mile
and half and you call that the Mooring place.
Reb: While we aze talking about that, you've got the place where the old Steele Gin is and
then that cafe is still there.
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FD: That cafe wasn't there then.
Reb: I know it wasn't there, but just to get oriented...this is the old Steele Gin and this is
Don Angonia's place. Where was Steele's Store?
FD: There was a gin there. Have you got a name there by Frank Salvato/Nick Salvato's
Grocery Store there? Anything like that?
Reb: I didn't notice that. It's just an old building.
FD: I know, but there was a store on the left hand side and a gin on the right hand side.
Reb: That's right.
FD: That Salvato was some kin to Don Angonia because he married Don Angonia's daddy'
sister.
Reb: About where was the old Steele's Store located?
FD: Right there, where the gin was.
Reb: You mean, right next to the gin?
FD: Right in the area. When you are coming off the Highway 21 and you get on FM #50 and
reach Sandy Point Road there, that store was on the left and the gin was on the right.
Reb: Now, that building that is there now. The old Steele's Store building must have been
torn down and this one put up.
FD: That`s not the real one...there was a real store, really high on blocks (two-story) and that
store used to belong to Scanlin.
Reb: But it was Steele's Store, wasn't it?
FD: Well, it was Steele's Store......? A guy by the name of Scanlin used to own that store
where Salvato°s owned that, but I don't know who owns that now because Nick Salvato and
Frank Salvato died. and, also, Tony Varisco married Frank Salvato's daughter. You don't
know about that?
Reb: No, because we haven't talked with him, yet.
FD: Okay, that's his father-in-law, and Mr. Nick Salvato was Mr. Frank's brother. They
used to run a store there, but they bought that store from Scanlin and there used to be a gin
back there by the railroad track. And there used to be a schoolhouse. We used to go to school
over there.
MD: They called it Steele's Store School, so Steele's Store was over there.
Reb: Yes, I have this picture. This is that old building and I have seen the small building,
also.
FD: But, I'm talking about behind Nick Salvato's Store. We used to go to school there way
back in 1922.
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Reb: That was after the old Steele's Store building?
MD: Yes, that's right.
FD: Then, they built the school close to Mrs. Milton Sim's place, that plantation owner, and
that land belonged to John Fazzina, where that school is built now.
MD: Did they ever tell you about Ward Mooring? He had a post office there and a store. My
uncle used to work there.
Reb: I have heard about Ward Mooring. Was that back in the 1890s or late 1800s?
FD: We moved out here in 1921, but that old man had that place about sixty or seventy years
before we moved there. It was Ses Mooring, that was his daddy, and when Mr. Ses Mooring
died the boy took over.
Reb: I know that they had a Ward Mooring Gin, the old Jack train used to stop there.
FD: Before Mooring bought that place it used to belong to a guy named Charlie Davis, but I
don't remember him. Mr. Ses Mooring bought that from Charlie Davis. I know that back in
1921 they were working prisoners on the Ward Mooring place.
. , Reb: I have something in my history about their working prisoners.
FD: I remember that because I was scared.
Reb: So there was a prison camp on this Ward Mooring place?
FD: Oh, yes, and you know what, they used to do..they had a red brick building with a
concrete floor and they had a big pen in the ground with a big ring in it and they used to chain
those prisoners, every night, to that big ring, I remember. And that was in the first part of
1921, I was probably was seven years old or maybe six or something like that.
Reb: Let's back up a bit. Mary, I thought Degelia was your married name?
-• MD: No, I never married.
Reb: Tell me where your parents came from.
MD: My father was born in Corleone and my mother was born in Steele'e Store.
Reb: What were their names?
MD: My mother's maiden name was Bessie Cotropia and my father was Frank Degelia.
Reb: Was Degelia the original spelling?
MD: It was supposed to be De Gelia, but my father, I don't know why he spelled it like that.
We just went on and spelled it with a small "g." It is supposed to be a capital "g."
Reb: They both came from Corleone?
MD: No, only my brother and my grandparents.
Reb: Do you know what their birthdates are:
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246
MD: My father was born July 6, 1888 and my mother was born March 7, 1894. They were
living here on Palasota Drive, but had previously lived in Steele°s Store.
Reb: So they died here in Bryan?
MD: Yes, both of them. My mother died January 18, 1979 and my father died May 6, 1973.
Reb: So, this family actually lived in Bryan Junction. Is that right?
FD: That's exactly right.
Reb: So when did they come into New Orleans?
MD: I don't know, by my grandpa worked in the sugar cane fields.
Reb: But these dates are for your parents. Did your grandparents come over also?
MD: Yes, my Grandpa Cotropia is the one who worked in the sugar cane (fields) and he got
real sick and they thought he wasn't going to live and he had diabetes or something.
Reb: And you pronounce their name Co-tro-pia instead of Co-tr6-pia?
MD: Yes, well, that was the pronunciation in those days, then they started pronouncing it Co-
trG-pia.
Reb: What were your grandparents' names?
NID: My father°s mother°s name was Lena (Antonina) Bonano. Let me go get something.
Reb: So, Mr. Degelia, your grandparents actually came over to Bryan Junction?
FD: They bought some land on the left hand side after you pass the Little Brazos, which was
the Lee Cartarruglia farm. They were living over there and bought some land there, sometime
during the 1900s.
1VID: I don't know how my mother and daddy got together.
Reb: So your grandmother on your father's side was Lena Bonana.
1VID: If you want the Italian spelling, it was Antonina Bonana, she was born February 14,
1851 and died August 5, 1924.
Reb: This is your paternal grandmother on your father's side. Now what about your
grandfather on your father°s side?
MD: My grandfather, on my father's side, was Giuseppe Degelia. He was born September
15, 1851 and died August 27, 1925. That's my daddy's mother and father. My mother's
father was Francesco Cotropia, born August 15, 1845 and died September 29, 1919. My
mother's mother was Mary Cannaliato, born July 8, 1856 and died July 21, 1920.
Reb: So, actually these were the first ones to come over, weren't they?
MD: Right.
Reb: Both sets?
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MD: My mother's mother, Mary Cannaliato, never got here. She was the only child, my
mother had no aunts, my mother told me. When her mother came to the United States, my
grandma was really crying. She had a little store here, her husband (my great grandpa was
dead) and she had this little store and was bazely making a living selling a few things. After
her daughter, my grandma, came here she never had enough money to go back to see her
mother and she died.
Reb: So, your mother's father, Francesco Cotropia, he came over and you have no idea
when?
MD: My mother was born here (1894).
Reb: Was she born in Bryan?
MD: Out there in the country..I guess would be Bryan Junction. I don't know how long my
grandparents were here before she was born. They brought three children with them: Aunt
Lucy, Aunt Janie and Aunt Lena. They were my mother's three oldest (sisters?). They came
from Italy and were kind of young.
Reb: So your grandparents came first if your parents were born in Bryan Junction. So they
came to the Untied States in 1888 and came through New Orleans and you think they worked
in the sugaz cane fields for awhile before they came here?
FD: They bought some land here.
Reb: When they came over did they buy land right away or did they work as shazecroppers?
FD: No, they bought land between the Big Brazos and Little Brazos Rivers.
Reb: Have you any idea how they got from New Orleans to the Brazos Valley? Did you ever
hear any stories (about their trip this way)?I have not gotten any information on this. Is there a
-possibility that they took a wagon train and came overland or on a boat from New Orleans to
Galveston and then up here?
MD: I will ask Joe, my oldest brother, to see if he knows. He's much older than him (Frank)
by a couple of yeazs. He lives in Houston.
Reb: So after they bought property here did they stazt raising cotton?
MD: Yes.
FD: Between the Big Brazos and Little Brazos. They called that the Lee Cartirruglia farm.
Reb: Then you were born out there in Steele's Store?
FD: She was born in Steele's' Store but I was born in Bryan Junction.
MD: I think both you and Joe. I was born on May 30,1924 in Steele's Store. My sister,
Lena, was born on September 23, 1918 in Bryan Junction.
Reb: Mr. Degelia, you were born in Bryan Junction on November 4, 1914.
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248
FD: I have a brother, Joe, born November 26, 1912 and he was born in Bryan Junction. You
know, the reason I remember that? Mama said that in 1913 they had a flood and they were up
in a two-story building.
Reb: What is the earliest flood that you remember?
IFD: 1921. We were living at Steele's Store, 1921, 1929, and 1936. In 1929, I'll never
forget that. There was a guy, Frank Tranticost, lightening killed him on the Wazd Mooring
place.
MD: My mother told us about that. It was very bad. My brother was a little baby, it was in
1913. They had to get on top of the gin, up in the rafters. They lost all of their mules and their
chickens, they lost everything.
Reb: Do you remember hearing your parents talk about any eazlier floods?
FD: Mostly, they talked about 1913.
MD: Anyway, the water got so high that they had to raise the electricity wires.
IFD: There was about twenty feet of water.
Reb: Is there anything else you would like to add to this interview?
FD: The only thing was that we came up poor. Cotton was about five cents a pound and
hogs about three cents a pound.
Reb: You probably raised most of your food?
MD: My father was a gazdener and we had own beef, pork, chickens, and eggs. We didn't
buy anything, except coffee and sugar when he went to town. My mother was a very good
seamstress and she sewed for us and for all the families of black people that lived neazby.
Reb: Did she have a treadle machine?
MD: Yes, I still have it. She made her own patterns out of newspaper. She made coats and
pants for little boys and would first make them out of newspaper. She would sew the whole
outfit for a quarter. That was before I was born, like azound 1912, 13 and 14.
FD: There was a dam, built way up high, and in 1913 when that water rose so high they sent
a guy in a boat to bomb that dam but those two guy didn't come back. When they busted that
dam, the water formed such a suction that it took them. But there were a lot of people who lost
their lives there. ('This dam was between the Brazos and Burleson County) A lady from
Burleson County was telling me that her mother and daddy just had time to get out of the house
and there was a big tree next to the house, and they had a wagon sheet and they tied the sheet to
the house and to the tree and they got on the tree. And about that time the house swept away
and I don't know how long they stayed up in that tree, but they all drowned. That was in
1913. Now, I don°t believe that (the flood) in 1921 was as bad as in 1913.
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Reb: But things were getting better.
FD: If they had not busted that dam there wouldn't have been anybody left on this side. It
would have come pretty much this way but not too much because the bottom land is lower than
the hill land and it would go more to the lower place like all in Burleson County and all back in
there.
Reb: One more question. Where was the little jail house?
FD: It would have been at the intersection of Sandy Point road and Highway #50. There
used to be a two-story building out there and a jail house behind it. They used to play cards
and shoot dice at that place. At that time my daddy was a constable with a guy by the name of
Joe Bomanski and that would be around 1922 until we left.
Reb: For what area was he the constable?
FD: That area.
Reb: Steele's Store and Brazos Junction?
FD: I think so. I remember he used to wear a pistol.
Reb: I would like to use some of this information in this book that I am writing (about the
Italians in this area). Do I have your permission to do this?
MD: Yes. It is just to the best of our ability that we remember all this.
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251
Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mr. Barney Cotrone (BC)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: February 18, 1992
Steele°s Store, Texas
Note: Due to a problem with the fast part of the interview I have have repeated the information
givn to me by Mr. Cotrone.
Mr. Cotrone was born in Steele's Store, Texas on October 5, 1932. His grandparents were
Barney Cotrone who came over from Corleone, Sicily. While here in the States he met Mr.
Cotrone's grandmother, Lucy Cotropia.
Reb: And your grandparents came over in the eazly 1900s to Steele' Store. Was your
grandfather married at that time?
BC: I don't think so.
Reb: Where did he meet Lucy Cotropia? Was it here in Steele's Store, do you think?
BC: I guess right here.
BC: My grandfather died at an eazly age.
Reb: Where is he buried?
BC: In Bryan. My grandmother raised four children with the help of Sam Cotropia, her
brother. They were raised on a fifty-acre farm. They worked very hard and did most of their
own work, picking and chopping cotton. Then, in 1941, when the war broke out they moved
to Ft. Worth, that left my daddy by himself. He farmed and she went into the restaurant
business in Ft. Worth with one of her daughters. When she passed away she was in Ft.
Worth. My uncle and two aunts also passed away in Ft. Worth. We were the only Cotrones
left related to the Cotropias. Then my dad died in 1962 and my mother died September 11,
1991, she was 83. The way of life was altogether different now than when my grandmother
was here. They raised most of their products and had a big garden, fiuit trees, chickens, pigs
and cows. Otherwise, they made their living off the farm.
Reb: What about cooking in those days? What kind of stoves did you have in the household?
did they cook outside very much?
BC: No, I can remember a wood stove. Wood was the main fuel at that time. I think their
utilities ran about ten cents a week. They would buy a gallon of coal oil (kerosene) and there
were wood fireplaces and wood stoves.
252
Reb: Their wood...was it just gathered from around or did they actually buy wood as we
have to do.
BC: No, they gathered wood. And their means of transportation was walking, mules
or...they had a car but didn't drive it very often.
Reb: Was the "Jack" interurban running at that time?
BC: Yes, but I don't remember it. I heard my daddy speak of it. In fact, where we lived it
would turn around. It would go to Bryan, then back to Hearne. And I don't know whether it
went into the lower bottoms or not. I think it did.
Reb: But, apparently it was just a short line there.
BC: Yes.
Reb: Was it considered an interurban?
BC: I don't know.
Reb: With just one or two cars?
BC: Yes, and it would stop along the railroad tracks and pick up people.
Reb: And these people that they would pick up, were they mostly going for shopping for
groceries and clothes and things like that?
BC: From what they tell me they would commute from here (Steele's Store) to Hearne on
what they called the "Jack." My dad worked for that railroad In fact, we still have a well on
our place where they filled up for the steam, a big six-inch well.
Reb: What railroad line was that?
BC: I don't know, that was way before my time.
Reb: When your family came...do you know how they came? Did they come in through
New Orleans?
BC: Yes.
Reb: Do you know how they got from New Orleans to the Brazos Valley?
BC: Well, my grandmother went to Oklahoma and bought a lot, somewhere in Oklahoma.
I've got the deed, I've forgotten what town it's in. They heard of the Brazos bottoms and
came from Oklahoma.
Reb: Probably by wagon, I suppose.
BC: I'm sure.
Reb: Well, do you have any idea how most of these people came? What routing they took?
BC: No, I sure don't.
Reb: I think probably some came to Galveston and then upland by wagon. Or, I'm just
wondering whether they came directly from New Orleans by wagons.
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BC: I don't know how they came in to settle this part of the country. But I do know that they
did land in New Orleans.
Reb: What about church in those days? I understand that there was a building next to
Steele's Store, in the early days, where church services were held. I saw that building on one
of the farms last week.
BC: They would have church on Sunday. I went to that church myself. It was a little
building right alongside of the school and it had a little platform, where the priest would say his
sermon and I can remember Mr.. Tony Varisco serving Mass. Now that dates way back. Then
we moved to Burleson County, at one time, we didn't stay there very long. We went to a
church which still is in existence, the mission San Salvador. That dates way back.
Reb: Actually, that has an historical marker on it, too. I think it's 1903. Well, I guess the
primary activities in those days were weddings and funerals and baptisms, I suppose, and St.
Joseph's Altars.
BC: Sunday was a big day for reunions. The men would play giupetta or throwing washers.
Reb: What about boccia ball?
BC: Well, they would play that, too. Friends would get together and, if it was the rainy
season, relatives would spend two or three days with us. Heazne was a big trip.
Reb: About how long would it take to get to Hearne from here?
BC: I wouldn't have any idea.
Reb: What about Bryan?
BC: I would imagine it was an all day run.
Reb: We were trying to speculate on that this morning. We thought that maybe they would
have to go eazly in the morning and they would come back late at night to be able to make a
one-day shopping trip. It might have been too faz for that.
BC: Well, that was a little bit before my time. I do remember my grandmother saying that
when they went to town, three or four families would get together. And they bought their
necessities, like sugaz.
Reb: Do you recall them ever saying anything about Indians at that time, in this azea?
BC: No.
Reb: I haven't heard anyone saying anything about that, although during the late 1890s, there
might have been. I don't know of any tribes who might have been active in this area, at that
time.
BC: No, I don't remember their saying anything about Indians.
Reb: What about the Pitt's Ferry? Are you familiar with the Pitt's Ferry?
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254
BC: Oh, I heard my daddy speak of it. Is that the one across the Big Brazos?
Reb: I don't know exactly where it is located.
BC: They had a ferry across from Mumford, at one time. They used to cross at Fort
Tenoxtitlan (on the Brazos River). I think that's where the Spanish used to cross the river.
Reb: And so, they had a ferry there?
BC: Yes.
Reb: Did it have a specific name?
BC: No, but if you stop at the store in Mumford and ask Mrs. Foyt, she can tell you what it
was called.
Reb: But do you think that was the Pitt°s Ferry?
BC: No, I think that ferry is or was at Stone City.
Reb: I think you are probably right. Do you remember hearing your parents comment about
the trip over on the boat?
BC: No.
Reb: I have copies of the passenger lists of all the ships from the different ports in Sicily that
landed in New Orleans. I don't have copies of the ships' passenger lists of those that landed in
Galveston, but I do have those for New Orleans, since most of the people here first landed in
New Orleans, before coming here. There must be about 25,000 names on those lists. And I
have gone through the lists to pick out names that were familiaz to me. I'll have to look up the
name of Cotrone since that name was not familiar to me when I was going through the lists.
BC: I think Mr. Nick ?has a list of those people who came over and it seems like
there was a Cotrone on there.
Reb: I'm sure there would be. What else, Mr. Cotrone, can you think of that you could tell
me, that would take us back to the early days of your parents and about their lives here?
BC: There was a real small school close to where I lived, and my dad, aunts and uncles went
to school there. And then they built a big school and that became a colored school.
Reb: What was the first school you talked about, do you remember?
BC: I can't remember the name of it.
Reb: Was that before the big school was built?
BC: Yes, And then where I live, where the Jack turned around, there was a post office, that
my uncle, Sam Cotropia, ran. I really can't give you very much information about the early
days. My grandfather was young when he got killed I don't know the circumstances. My
grandmother had four children: two boys and two girls. She had one every yeaz they were
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married, and I think they were only married five years. She was the only Cotrone there, but
she had several brothers in Houston, but he (grandfather) was the only one azound here.
Reb: Then, your grandfather had several brothers in Houston.
BC: There just azen't many Citroens left around here, they are mostly in Louisiana and
Houston. We have lots of people in Louisiana.
Reb: I have noted that so many of the families are from Corleone, Poggioreale and Salaparuta,
but mostly from Poggioreale. It's interesting the stories I have heard about these groups.
.Have you anything more to add?
BC: Mainly, this country was all plantations years back. I was raised on the Wazd-Mooring
farm. There was a Wazd-Mooring Gin, Sims Plantation and Aston Plantation.
Reb: Were these people of British descent? The plantation owners?
BC: I don't know what descent they are from. I can say one thing, this Mr. Ward Mooring,
he was a wonderful fellow. He treated the Italian people really nice. At least he treated us
nice. Most of these were shazecroppers.
Reb: I was just going to ask you, is this the capacity in which they first began to work.
BC: My grandmother had fifty acres...it dates way back. My dad, he worked as a
sharecropper for a long time. And these plantations were very big, two or three thousand
acres. My mother was raised on a plantation.
Reb: You know, I wish I could to talk to some member of the Steele family. If I just knew
how to get in touch with some member of the Steele family. Can you tell me what you know
about the floods in this area?
BC: Well, the truth is I'll just ell you what my dad told me. In 1921, there was a real bad
flood and most of the people lost everything they had. After 1921, most people moved into
Houston and left the bottoms with not very many Italians. Every year it's been getting smaller
and smaller. But that's mainly the reason they moved away from here was on account of the
floods.
Reb: Yes, that I understand. Well, I appreciate so much the time you have given to me and I
would like to have your pernussion to put some of this information in the book that I am
writing. Later I will mail a copy of this tape and of the transcription to you.
BC: Now, you be sure to talk to Mrs. Foyt about the "Jack" I think that what you really want
to know about the communication and the transportation. Now they used this "Jack" to
transport cotton and they would bring in supplies, too. I don't know how many cars there
were, but they called this place where the train would turn around, Bryan Junction, here in
Steele°s Store. That°s where I live ...in Bryan Junction.
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Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mrs. Josephine Salvato Varisco (JSV)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: March 6, 1992
Bryan, Texas
Due to problems with the tape recorder the first part of this interview was not recorded. The
following information was obtained and retaped:
Mrs. Josephine Salvato Varisco is the wife of Antonio (Tony) Varisco, Jr. Their lineage is as
follows: Biagio Varisco married Maria Zumma in their hometown of Poggioreale, Sicily.
They had a son, Antonio Varisco who was born in New Orleans on June 10, 1878. When he
was a year old his family moved back to Italy. He married Dorotea Tritico in 1902 in Italy.
They had a son, Biagio (Brazos) Varisco who was born on October 12, 1902. In 1906
Antonio returned to the States where he found employment in a macaroni factory in Houston
and regained his American citizenship.
JSV: Antonio's father died of yellow fever (in the United States) and his mother took her
young son (Antonio) back to Italy. Eventually he (Antonio) gave up his American birthright
and became an Italian citizen and took up farming in Poggioreale. That was my father-in-law.
Then he returned in 1906, but we have 1907 down here.
Reb: This is a Preliminary Form for Petition for Naturalization. And on this one they have
Antonio Vazisco and on this one they had Antonioo.
JSV: I remember he always signed his name, Antonioo.
Reb: So that would be the proper way.
JSV: A cousin, Domenic Angonia, was already a farmer out at Steele's Store. And he helped
Antonio get started farming. He farmed a few acres for him, but my husband (Tony) said that
my father-in-law (Antonio) sharecropped with a sharecropper, Hillsman Wilson, who owned
several hundred acres of land out there. He might have sharecropped with Mr. Angonia. He
got started farming with five acres and then, maybe, gave him twenty-five. My father-in-law
probably worked for Mr. Angonia first. He then sent for my mother-in-law (Dorotea) and she
came here. See when my father-in-law came he left my mother-in-law and two children. After
he established himself he sent for her and the two children, Mary and Brazos, and they lived in
a little house on the Wilson's fazm, such as the plantation owners would give to their
shazecroppers. Later he bought some land, Tony said, right where we live there.
Reb: Now, is that where the two-story home is now?
258
JSV: Yes, but that°s not the first home they lived in. It was a frame home, a country home, it
was bigger than the little home. It had been lived in before, but that was their first home. But
when he bought the land where we are now, this home was there. Typical country home with
a big front porch. I'm sure that most of her children were born there. I don't know but she
probably had a couple more before they moved there. I don't know what year they bought that
land there, but she had nine children, ten in all, one child died, I imagine in about 1919. He
was a little older than my husband.
Reb: Do you have a picture of that large house?
JSV: I probably have. You know, we lived in it. In 1937, my father-in-law built atwo-story
brick home that they lived in until they both died. In fact, when we married in 1946 we redid
the old home and Tony and I lived there for fifteen yeazs, right there close to my mother-in-law
and my father-in-law. She had, of course, a nicer home then. She had lived in the older
houses for awhile and then she had a nice home and he was buying more farmland all of the
time. He worked hard and they saved their money, the didn't spend money, they lived mostly
on what they raised.
Reb: They lived simply and they were used to working hard for their money.
JSV: They farmed. He had a lot of mules and it didn't cost them as much to farm because,
Tony said, he raised all the grain and hay for the mules.
Reb: What about beef cattle?
JSV: He didn't raise any at all. My husband had a few after we married,
Reb: What kind of cattle did he raise.
JSV: White-face Herefords. My son lives in that two-story house. She (mother-in-law) lived
there and she got to be ninety-seven years old. They gave the house to my husband (Tony) but
we had already built our house in 1962. We had a nice brick home right close by, in fact, we
share the same driveway and yard. We built our home there for her because she was a widow
(at the time).We couldn't leave her. That's why I know so much was because I was around
her a lot.
Reb: Would you like to tell some of your favorite stories that she would tell you?
What did she like to talk about?
JSV: She would talk about how she hated to leave when her husband sent for her. She had
to come here because she had the two little children, but she hated to leave her mother. She
said she had so many nice things. I remember he telling me that she left all of her pretty linens,
pretty dishes and things that her mother had bought for her when she got married. And she
said she just took what she needed, her clothes, and came here. When she got here her
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husband told her that she was going to live in that little house on the Wilson farm, that she was
shocked because it wasn't very fancy and it didn't have any conveniences. It probably needed
wallpaper and paint, it was just baze. She said she was just shocked because she had left all of
her pretty things and came here. And she worked in fields.
She would take her two or three children, as the years went by, with her to the cotton fields
and she chopped cotton and picked cotton with a black family that worked for them. By that
time he had acquired more land and he probably had a black family on the farm to help. But
during the eazly years she worked in the fields. He wouldn't let her go alone but he would let
her go with this black family to watch for her. The land was pretty close to where they lived
and she would go home about eleven o'clock to fix some lunch for them. There were a lot of
pecan or shade trees out in the fields and she would sit them (children) under those trees as she
moved along. It was hard but that's how they lived for a while until they got on their feet.
Then the older daughters would help a lot with the housework.
Reb: I know they didn't have much time for real social activities but what did she talk about?
JSV: They just visited on Sundays with their friends. In fact, when they lived on the Wilson
farm, she got to be a good friend of Mrs. Bessie Morello. They had some farmland back in
there. Pete Morelia family. She (Dorotea) said they became good friends and that they would
visit with each other. They didn't do much visiting during the week but on Sundays they
would visit friends. When they moved over to where we are now, they probably had a car
then, and my husband remembers having to take them to visit Mr. Domenic Angonia.
Reb: What about church at that time?
JSV: Well, until they got a car, I don't think they went to church. There was a priest to go
- out there. I don't think he went every Sunday. I believe they said Mass in the little
schoolhouse. My father-in-law was an altaz boy. He served Mass until he was an old man.
And my mother-in-law would invite the Priest every Sunday after the Mass to eat dinner with
them. I remember that after I married and they had built a big brick home and we were living
next door and we would go to Mass in the little schoolhouse. Father Peter Villani or Father
Bravi would come out and say Mass once or twice a month and they were just real good
friends. And my father-in-law helped him serve the Mass and they would invite the Priest to a
big spaghetti dinner.
Reb: Would they bring the Sisters out there at that time?
JSV: Yes, when I was going to school there and was old enough, it wouldn't be all year.
But when we were at the age to receive First Holy Communion they would bring the Sisters
out there to instruct us, and when we were going to be Confu~rned also.
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Reb: Do you recall your mother-in-law talking about cooking in those days? Did she make
her own tomato paste and pasta ?
JSV: She did all that, I'm sure, before I was married. I remember that after I married my
father-in-law always planted a huge garden and raised a lot of tomatoes and all kinds of
vegetables. My father-in-law had a Spanish fellow who would pick all of the tomatoes. 'They
would let them ripen and spread them out on the front porch to get real ripe and she would can
them We would all get out there and can them outside under those shade trees. She would
also make tomato paste inside. I remember her making tomato paste and putting it in cans.
Reb: When they would can the whole tomatoes, would they use the water bath system where
they would put the jars in boiling water?
JSV: No, she cooked the paste in the pot.
Reb: No, I meant the whole tomatoes.
JSV: Well, after she dunked the whole tomatoes in hot water she would peel them and put
them into the cans. She used cans instead of jars when I was with her. Maybe in the early days
she probably put them into jars. I remember that she used to get one of the men to operate the
canning machine. She probably put some of that sauce in the jazs in the house because she
didn't how to use the canning machine. And she probably put them into the water bath or
sterilized the jars. My mother used to can a lot of fnuts and vegetables and she would use that
water bath.
Reb: What about making bread?
JSV: Oh, yes, my mother-in-law never did buy bread.
Reb: Where did she bake this bread.
JSV: Probably in those early years she had a wood stove. When she lived in the first big
farmhouse, she probably used kerosene and she had water in that house, but the didn't have
gas yet. But in the other home, they had gas.
Reb: One thing of interest to me has been learning about the yeast. One lady told me about
having brewed hops to make a tea and then adding cornmeal to that. Do you know anything
about that?
JSV: I think she made yeast, because my mother did. She always had a starter.
Reb: But the starter had to come from someplace. I was told that they made a tea from the
hops
then took out the hops and added cornmeal to make a paste and they made yeast cakes with it.
JSV: Yes, I remember as a child seeing my mama make those little yeast cakes and I think my
mother-in-law made those little yeast cakes and then make the bread with them. When I married
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261
I lived with my mother-in-law for a yeaz, she made bread all of the time, but I can't remember
whether she used the homemade yeast cakes or would buy them.
Reb: Did she make the ricotta cheese?
JSV: She probably did, I do know that they made the soft cheese.
Reb: Do you know what she used to sour the milk with? Someone mentioned that some
would take a gland from a rabbit and fill it with milk and that would sour and use that as a
starter.
JSV: I just know she had some kind of starter.
Reb: What about sewing and embroidery in those days, did she have any time for that?
JSV: Well, she made my father-in-law's little jackets that he wore, she would sew a lot of
things.
Reb: Where did they find the time?
JSV: Probably in the winter when she didn't have to work outside. After I married, those
were better days for her, but she still sewed some. Those little jackets were made out of a
~. denim material. These were everyday jackets. I don't know about embroidery, I know her
older girls did a lot of embroidery. She didn't have a lot of time with a big family, but of
~~ -~-- course,.: as the children got older they helped her a lot with the younger ones. Her oldest
_~ daughter has a daughter older than one of my mother-in-law's, and my mother-in-law had the
youngest at forty-four yeazs old.
Reb: Do you recall her talking very much about the floods?
JSV: I don't remember her talking very much about them, but my husband, Tony, said that
when they did have floods there they were the 1913 and 1921 floods. They were probably
living in the old first home they had. They probably went to the gin. You know some families
would go up into their attics. The original gin there had a second floor and they would go up
into that, I imagine that's what they did.
Reb: Now, when you talk about the original gin or you talking about the Steele's Gin?
JSV: No, I'm talking about the Varisco and Ross Bonano gin which is not too far from
where we are. It's right there on the land.
Reb: Was that the first gin out there?
JSV: No, way back there was the Steele's Gin you mentioned. I don't remember it, but it
was right neazby where I grew up. There by Don Angonia, you know he bought that land and
that was right in front of the store that my father (Frank Salvato) and uncle (Nick L. Salvato)
owned Salvatos' Store.
Reb: Is that store building still there?
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262
JSV: No. They tore it down way after I man~ied. My uncle and my daddy tore it down and
they built a smaller one because it was big and high on blocks. It was a big general store, cold
in the winter, so they just tore it down and built the smaller one which is still there, but it's not
used as a store anymore.
I think
Reb: Is that across the street from the Steele's Gin?
JSV: Yes.
Reb: Was the original Steele's Store across the street.
JSV: I think so, I think Steele's Store was in that little area there. And they had a little post
office a little farther down. It would have had to be on Steele's land.
Reb: It is my understanding that the community got its name from Mr. Steele's store.
JSV: And just a few miles down the road from our house my Salvato grandparents owned a
store and part of that building is still there, close to the Mooring farm. There were a lot of
stores out there in those days. There was a school not too faz from where we lived and that's
where all the children went. That's where all the children went, where all Tony's older brother
and sisters, like Brazos and Betty.
Reb: And that's a different school from the one that is there now?
JSV: Yes, that wasn't there then. This school was in Stone City because my mother said that
she and all of her friends from the Steele's Store azea went there. And she and Brazos attended
school there together. They were good friends and only a yeaz apart. We always thought they
were about six months apart in age until my sister found out that Brazos was born in 1902 and
my mother in 1901. There was just one school out there then, I'm sure. Later when the
existing school was built I went there for six yeazs, but they did teach up to the eighth grade.
Reb: (Looking at a map of the Steele°s Store area). Here is some reference to Mooring's.
JSV: There was a post office there when I was a child growing up. My parents lived right
here in Mudville and Mooring was a little further up. There's Greater Salem which was a black
church.
Reb: Interesting that as new a map as this is (1992) that they would still use the name
Mudville instead of Steele's Store.
JSV: That was kind of a nickname.
Reb: You know that the Steele's' Store school is up for sale now?
JSV: Yes, it is going down so. They have tried to have some meetings there for the farmers,
but it is in such bad condition and they are thinking of tearing it down and building a little nicer
building. You hate to see them tear it down, there aze a lot of memories there, but it would take
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263
a lot of money to restore it. You asked about the floods. They didn't really affect us. I
remember hearing my mama say that in one of those floods they lost everything they made that
year. It took all of the cotton and one of those floods took everything away and they were
probably up in the ceiling (attic) or in the gin. My mother's father-in-law had atwo-story
house, they lived up over that store I was telling you about that was down there close to the
Moorings. They were probably up there since it was a concrete building. I think her parents
had a couple of rooms upstairs, but she said that they could see their furniture floating away.
One year they didn't make anything, the flood took all they had.
Reb: Can you tell me anything about the "Jack" train that used to operate at that time?
JSV: I remember my mother saying that they use to call it "Ole Jack." I don't know where it
was coming from but it would come through and go to Hearne and I think on up to Valley
Junction.
Reb: And did it just travel that short route? I understand it just had an engine and one caz?
JSV: I don't know. I remember my mother talking about it.
Reb: Did you ever hear her refer to the "finny" train?
JSV: No.
Reb: Someone I talked to just recently about the "Jack" train asked me if I knew that there
was a "finny" train, too. I wonder who traveled the train, primarily, did you ever heaz her
say?
JSV: No. Maybe Vince Court might know about that train.
Reb: If you think of anything more you would like to add you can pass it on to Jobey
(Ruffmo). There are still many people I have not had a chance to interview. I am so happy that
we are going to get the Texas Historical Marker there. I would like to ask you permission and
have you sign this form in order to use some of this material in writing this history. I would
appreciate that very much. Thank you, Mrs. Varisco.
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265
Oral History
of the
Brazos Valley Italians
Interview with: Mr. Luke Pete Scamardo (LS) and lus wife, Mary Varisco Scamardo (M5),
and son Pete Luke Scamardo (PS)
Interviewer: Mrs. Rosemary DePasquale Boykin (Reb)
Date: March 9, 1992
Mumford, Texas
Reb: Mr. Scamardo, how long have you lived in this area?
LS: I moved here January 4, 1935.
Reb: Where were you born?
LS: I was born in Italy, Poggioreale.
Reb: Mrs. Scamardo, what is your full name?
MS: Mary Varisco Scamardo.
Reb: And when were you born, Mr. Scamardo?
MS: I was born July 31, 1896 in Poggioreale.
Reb: You should be proud of that. You don't look as though you were born in 1896. Mrs.
Scamardo, do you mind telling me your birthdate?
MS: No, November 25, 1904. I was born in Poggioreale. I was three years old when we
came from over there.
Reb: Did your families know each other there?
LS: No, we didn't know each other. I knew her family but I didn't know her. We married
sometime in 1922, and I knew her a couple of years ahead of that:
Reb: And where did you marry?
LS: In Bryan at St. Joseph's (Church).
Reb: And where did you set up your first home.
LS: At Steele°s Store, just off of Highway #21 about a mile. When you go to the left there
was a gin. My father-in-law had a gin (Varisco Gin). It is still in the family.
Reb: How close is that to the old Steele Gin.
LS: I'd say a couple of miles. This gin is still in operation.
Reb: What is it called today?
LS: Varisco and Court Gin. My brothers-in-law own it.
Reb: I talked with Mrs. Tony Varisco yesterday. Everyone has been very nice to sit and talk
about those places.
LS: Now, she can tell you a lot, because she was born and raised in Steele's Store.
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266
Reb: Yes, this is what she was saying.
L5: I~er mother's house still exists there.
Reb: You said that you were married at St. Joseph's, but I have January 4, 1935, what was
that date.
LS: January 12, 1922.
Reb: When did you come to the United States?
L5: I believe it was in 1900. I was five and now I am ninety-five, almost ninety-six, so I
came here in 1900.
Reb: Mr. Scamazdo, did you come in through the Port of New Orleans?
LS: No, we came into Galveston.
Reb: Do you remember the name of the ship you came on?
LS: No, I don't.
Reb: There is a new museum that has just opened in Galveston and they have the passenger
lists from the different ships that arrived in Galveston. Now, I understand that some of the
passenger lists were destroyed many years ago, so that the lists are not complete. So, if ever
you have the opportunity to go to Galveston you must get someone to take you to this new
museum that is very close to one of the piers..I can't remember which one. It's right on the
water, and they will look up this information for you. They will look up your last name and
they will tell you the name of the ship that you came on.
MS: I think my mother's ship came through New Orleans.
LS: I believe that you and your mother came through New Orleans, but I came through
Galveston.
Reb: So you were married in 1922 and you set up housekeeping very close to Steele's Store?
LS: That°s right, about two miles south.
Reb: And how long were you in that area before moving here.
LS: We lived about two or three city blocks from there (the Varisco home) and I was running
a little country farm grocery store there. Then finally, I quit that and went to famung and I am
still a farmer.
Reb: What about going to school? Did you go to the little old school there in Steele°s Store?
L5: Well, it's a long and funny story. I was living in Burleson County and I went to school
in a little one-room schoolhouse in the vicinity of Scamazdo Gin...had a one-room school
there. And when it was raining, like this yeaz, and I couldn't work on the farm, I went to
school. Then after that I got to the age of seventeen, heck I didn't know about school, because
I just went a day or two during the week.
2
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267
Reb: You worked most of the time, didn't you?
LS: Yes, when it was too wet to work on the farm, I went to school. As I grew up, when I
got be seventeen or eighteen, I commenced to realizing what education meant to a person going
through this whole wide world. And it looked like I was too grown up to go to a little old
country school like that and it (wasn't doing me any good, so I went to my dad and I said,
"Dad, I haven't got an education and I can't get an education at this little old school out here
because its just for a beginner and I am too old for the rest of the kids." He said, "What do
you want to do?" I said that I wanted to go to a higher school than this, I said, "I'd like to go
to college, but I haven't got what it takes to get into college. But I believe, I am going to try
anyway, to go to Allen Academy." That is what you call ...it wasn't a college, it was a private
boarding (school). I went there when the founder of the college was there, John Allen, and he
had a daughter, named...I forgot what her first name was...she's married to a lawyer in
College Station, now. Anyhow, she went to school there, too, there at Allen Academy because
her daddy was there and her brother was there and her uncle was there.
Reb: She was probably the only girl at that school.
LS: She was...she was the only one, in fact it was 1918. I went there and I went to meet the
principal who was John Allen. He was the owner of the school. I made it my business to find
out who it was and I went there and I laid my cards on the table. I said, "Here I am, I haven't
got any education, I want some education and I haven't got what it takes to get into your
school." He said, "Well, where have you been to school?" I told him just like I told you. He
said, "How far did you go?" I said, "I didn't go far because I didn't go that long." "By gosh!
he said, "that makes it hard!" I said, "I still want to go to school." So he went to figuring and
figuring and figuring. He asked me a few questions and then said, "I'm going to give you a
chance, I'm going to accept you, because you are so anxious." I was a happy boy when he
told me that, so I went back and told my dad and said, °'Dad, I believe I got it fixed so I can
enter Allen Academy. I talked to the principal, he's the one who's in charge. Next question is,
now, dad, that's not a free school." You know how the old folks were, he hated to loose me
because, when you start school, you don't work so he said, "Since you're so anxious, so
willing and you've got you a place to go, I'm going to try to get the money to pay for it.
Okay?~v
Reb: How old were you at the time?
LS: Seventeen. So I got started down there and, believe it or not, John (Allen) told me this,
"If you do good I'm going to keep you. If you flunk out, you gotta be out." I said, "I know
that." So later on...I really was anxious, I really studied and I learned easily. And John Allen
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was the mathematics teacher and so I went there and I did real well, in fact, I reentered the next
year and I did so well that he accepted me. I made my grades, and went the next year. Well,
in 1918, during World Waz I, I was supposed to be drafted, well, before the day came they
signed a peace (agreement) and the waz ended but I had. resigned at school and I didn°t° go
back. Anyhow, I went a semester and a half, and believe it or not, I learned as much in that
session and a half than some people learn in three yeazs, because I was grown up and knew it
took an education to go through this world of ours, so I went there and that's all the schooling
I've got. The rest of it I got through actual experiences.
Reb: We used to call it the "school of hazd knocks."
LS: That's right. But I'll tell you that Allen Academy was a good school. They had
principles there, they had respect. On Sunday morning, old man John Allen, he had an
inspector because he told everybody, " I want everybody on Sunday morning to go to church,
regazdless of what church you go to, that's our rules." But some of them would sneak out and
stay back. You know what, he had an inspector to check the rooms after a certain hour to see
if they did go. He°d say, "I'm not telling you what church to go to but you must go to
church." I admired him for that.
Reb: Well, my brother thought a great deal of that school and enjoyed going. He did finish
there.
LS: I remember that daughter, her name was Fanny Allen.
Reb: I'd like to have the names of your pazents.
LS: My father's name was Peter and my mother's name was Vartola. We called her Betty.
Reb: What did your father do when he brought you over? Did he farm?
LSo Yes, that°s right.
Reb: (Speaking to Mrs. Scamardo) I know, from my visit with Josephine (Varisco) that I
picked up a lot of your family's history. (Speaking to Mr. Scamazdo) Did we discuss what
yeaz it was that you came to the YJnited States. You said that you came to the States at the age
of five and that you were born in 1896 and came here in 1901. Mrs. Scamardo was born in
1904 and came here in 1907. You came in through Galveston and Mrs. Scamardo through
New Orleans. Mr. Scamazdo, can you tell me anything about the "Jack" train?
LS: It ran from Bryan to Hearne.
Reb: I had heazd that there was a small train, an engine and one caz, that traveled just a short
distance in this area.
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LS: Well, actually we had two trains coming through there. One train came from Hearne on
this road here and went into Burleson County and into Caldwell. Caldwell is the county seat of
Burleson County.
Reb: So it went from Hearne to Caldwell?
L5: That's right. That's why they called it "Old Jack" because it stopped at every railroad
crossing.
Reb: So it would go from Hearne to Caldwell, make its little stops, turn azound and come
back?
LS: When I was first married and ran a grocery store over there they didn't have any
refrigerators then, no electricity, we had to use ice by the block. And I got my ice out of
Hearne where it was made and I got acquainted with the conductor and I asked him if he would
bring me a block of ice, every so many days, or something like that and he would stop at the
crossing of the railroad and unload it for me.
Reb: Now, when you talk about a block of ice, what size block aze we talking about?
L5: We're talking about 500 pounds.
Reb: Where did that ice come from?
L5: It came from Hearne.
Reb: Did they make it there?
L5: Oh, yes, and it hasn't been too long ago that they quit.
Reb: So it (Jack train) carried freight and carried passengers, too?
L5: Right.
Reb: And it had just one caz and the engine?
LS: One caz for passengers and a closed caz for freight.
Reb: Have you heard anything about a "finny" train?
LS: I forgot what they called it, "finny" or what, but this train came out of Bryan, crossed
the Little Brazos River bridge, then it crossed the Big Brazos River bridge where the present
railroad bridge is now. But then they crossed on the same bridge and that place on the Big
Brazos was called Stone City.
Reb: So it crossed the Big Brazos at Stone City?
L5: Right. Then they didn't have a highway across it but they had a ferry there. The railroad
bridge is still there.
Reb: What ferry was that? Was that Fitt's Ferry?
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LS: I can't tell you that, but there was a ferry there. What you have in mind, I believe, is that
a little farther down south there was a Pitt's Bridge a few miles down. That bridge doesn't
exist anymore. (Looking at a map of the area) After it crossed the river it turned off left and
went as far down as the Chance Farms, there they turned around and went to Bryan. Now
where did we find the Chance Farms?
Reb: I'm not sure, the Chance Farms would probably be south and this doesn't show that.
This is just (a map) for Brazos County.
LS: The Chance Farms are in Burleson County and where the Scamardo Gin is now was the
Parker place and they had a big gin there. Now, the Scamardo farrulies own a lot of the land
and the gin.
Reb: I suppose cotton was the primary crop on the farm that you were raised on?
LS: Cotton and corn.
Reb: Did some of the farmers in the area have cows? Did they raise very many cows?
LS: Not here, because the farms were small farms and there wasn't any pasture land to raise
cattle. The only ones to have cattle were the Parkers, they were the big plantation owners and
they had acres and acres of pasture land.
Reb: What kind of cattle did they raise...were they Hereford cattle?
LS: I can't answer that..that was too long ago. Way back then when they raised cattle I was
too young to know there was any difference in cattle.
Reb: I wondered just how much, if any, cattle was raised in the area.
L5: I'm sure he had several hundred.
Reb: So it was a fairly large operation.
LS: Oh, yes, because they had three or four different farms. They had three gins, I know.
Reb: What do you remember about the floods in this area? We had some very severe floods
in the late 1800s and then we had one in 1900, which was very severe,
L5: The one I can remember was the 1913. That was a big flood and I was told they had a
flood in 1900 but that°s before my time.
Reb: That was probably related to the big 1900 storm that they had at that time in
Galveston...the big hurricane.
LS: Well, the 1913, I can tell you something about that. In 1913 I was still there with the
family on the farm. My daddy went to Bryan on that train, that I was telling you about. That
train was malting a trip a day...going to the west in the morning and conung back in the
evening.
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LS: My daddy went to Bryan on that train, the river was high, you know, but it wasn't
flooding when he went because the train was running. And, anyhow, when he went to Bryan
during that day, everything flooded. You see, after the 1900 flood, they built a levee in
Burleson County. When the 1913 flood came along it busted that levee, the water was as high
as the levee and so it burst. It formed a suction and water was going uphill instead of
downhill, so, anyhow my daddy couldn't come back home, he came back as far as Smetana,
the train came back that faz. We had a relative who lived across the river, a place called Tripoli,
named after the same place in Italy. The Italian immigrants owned a lot of land there.
Reb: But is there still a town named Tripoli?
LS: It was a community where the old Bryan Airbase was and is now Texas A&M Reseazch
Center. We had some relatives there and he spent the night with them and he had to stay the
whole time with them. He had to stay there three days...until the river went down and he
crossed the river on a boat and walked home, about four miles. He had to walk in that mud
and when he got home he was totally out. He was afraid that we had drowned. Well, he came
home,: and thank God, we were all right. And while he was gone, I was the oldest one in the
family, all my brothers and sisters were there and they were all small. And the water got so
high that we had to get into the attic of the house. We didn't have a door to the attic because
we never thought that we would have to getup there. Since we didn't have a stairway to the
attic, I got a ladder for us to get into got up there. I got that ladder and put it up there and I got
an ax and I cut a hole in the ceiling, put that ladder there and I put all my sisters and brothers up
there. I had four sisters and four brothers and my mother. And I put them all up there and we
got a few quilts and blankets and took them up there, because it was cold, it was in December.
I believe it was the third day in December and it was cold and it was drizzling rain and freezing.
So we got up there and we were lucky that my mother had baked several loaves of bread that
day. She had a brick oven.
Reb: Outside?
LS: Outside. Are you familiaz with that?
Reb: Yes.
LS: So she took a lot of bread...boy, did I eat the bread. So, we took all of our bread up
there. Lucky we had it. And we had a few other things in the house we took up there . When
we got up there I couldn't look out because the roof didn't have a hole in it. I took the same ax
and cut a hole in the roof, then I could look out and, boy, it looked like Galveston. That's
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what that water looked like, seven, ten, twelve feet of water. I could see bales of cotton
floating down. I could see cows floating down. I could see mules floating down and I could
see wagons floating down. Just you name it and I could see it floating down. It was in
Burleson County when the levee busted and it formed a suction, just took everything from here
over there and everything was just passing by, just floating and I was sticking my head out
through that hole looking over there and we stayed there, and it was hard....eating just bread.
We had a bucket of water, about a ten gallon bucket and dipper, is what we had. So we made
it and after three days the water went down and we went down. The same day we went
downstairs my daddy came home, through that mud. He was so happy.
Retie Had he just gone on a business trip?
Y,S: On a business trip. And so after that we had to start all over again. Our fireplace..the
bottom of our fireplace got so soft, it was soaked. We went to build a fire on it and it just sunk
on down. We had bales of cotton that floated away. I had them up on top of wagons. I
thought that was going to be above the high water, but they weren't. It was so high that the
wagon bed served as a boat. It raised itself up off the wheels and floated on down like a cotton
boat I saw it go, and boy, it sure hurt, too. So we came home and started all over again,
went to fanning and here we are.
Reb: Well, it took a lot of courage to live through bad weather and bad tunes like that.
I.Se Well, like I said, it was sprinkling rain and freezing. There were some people...in
fact...I know of two of them, two colored people...the water came so high...six and seven
foot waves just coming on up to you that they didn't have a chance to walk out. Of course,
nobody was expecting it..and they got up into trees, pecan trees, ten-twelve feet high. They
got up to get out of the water. Well, they got out of the water, all right, but it began sprinkling
rain and freezing and (they) just stayed up there and starved and froze. I could hear them
hollering. So finally they died there and, after everything went down and got dry enough, they
had to go there and push them off the trees. One of them they pushed down and dug the grave
right there. Well, I saw that. But then after that, after things got normal again, there were
some more bonds and they built another levee. Well, they built it bigger and wider and taller, it
was twice as big as the other. They said, "Well, this was going to hold it.'°
In 1921 the river got up again and we had a flood then with no rain here, we didn°t get any
rain but they got the rain up north of us. The little river, which is not too far from here, see
this is the Big Brazos, the little river comes west of here, it empties into the Big Brazos. That
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water hit the Big Brazos, it didn°t stop, it just shot right across the road and came over into
Robertson County and flooded the Brazos Valley. We had a flood without any rain. So that
levee busted again and after that the people wouldn't vote for it (the levees?)anymore.
Reb: When was this flood without rain?
LS: It was in September.
Reb: But was that the same yeaz?
LS: Oh, no, that was in 1921. It was in the fall of the yeaz. At that time I was engaged to my
wife, she lived in Brazos County and I lived in Burleson County. We had a car but there
wasn't a bridge, so I had to walk the railroad bridge. We took a chance, at least I took a
chance walking that railroad bridge at Stone City, that a train could come along and kill me. But
I went across and went to see them, to see what they had lost in the flood, too. And the cotton
was all in the field and after it dried the farmer decided to pick it and they did pick some of it.
They picked it by hand but that cotton was so full of sand that the water had in it.
I was engaged to Mary and my father-in-law owned a gin and he decided he was going to
buy that cotton loose, not ginned, but loose, but he had a gin, so he bought the loose cotton
from people. They didn't have any bales they had four hundred to five hundred pounds, some
had a bale, maybe not but he bought it and stored it and ginned it and sold the cotton. But he
put me out to buy that cotton, people would come over there with cotton in sacks, one hundred
pounds, two hundred pounds, three hundred pounds and I had one price for all of it. But it
was all the same, it came out of the same flood and I was paying a nickel a pound.
Reb: What does cotton sell for these day, a pound?
LS: Well, right now, it's down, its about fifty-five cents, but last yeaz it sold for seventy-four
or seventy-five cents. We had to start all over again. We've had some light floods, but
nothing like that.
Reb: Let's back up a little bit to your mother and her cooking and the baking that she did. I'd
like to know more about that brick oven. Is this something that you all built for her?
LS: My daddy built it.
Reb: Was it fairly lazge and was it a round oven?
LS: It was round and had a hole at the top.
Reb: Did it have a chimney on it?
LS: No, just a hole there and you could stop it up or open it. I'd say it was four times as big
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as that table, all made out of bricks, round and my daddy built ite He built a brick floor and it
had fire bricks put under there.
Reb: Would you say that it was about ten feet wide?
LS: I'd say it was about eight feet and it had a door at the front. The door was about two feet
wide. My mother would get the wood ready, put it in there to burn and build a big fire. She
had a way of telling when those bricks were hot enough to put the bread in. She knew when it
got to that point, she had a rake, and she'd rake all that fire out.
Reb: So that fire was made on top of the floor of the oven?
LS: Might, but when the oven got ready, she°d pull all that out and she'd put the bread in
there. She°d make round loaves, she had a paddle, just like a boat paddle. Put a loaf of bread
on that and stick it way in the back, slide that flung out and leave the bread in.
Reb: So the bread was actually put onto the hot bricks to bake.
LS: Yes, and she'd fill that with bread and ever so often she'd go look at it. If it looked like
it was getting too hot, she'd let some of that heat out of the little air hole. Then she put it (the
air hole cover) back on, she knew how to do it. And that bread would be so brown and pretty
and smell so good. She knew how to do it, That°s the kind of bread we had when we up in
that ceiling in 1913.
Reb: The yeast that was used for this bread...where did at come from?
LS: Well, you could buy it at the drugstore. IViy mother would buy some, but she would
make her own, mostly.
Reb: ~Iow would she make her own?
LS: Boil six lazge potatoes in three pints of water. Tie a handful of hops in a small muslin
bag and boil with the potatoes. When thoroughly cooked, drain the water into enough flour to
make a thin batter. Set this on the range and scald long enough to cook the flour, which makes
the yeast keep longer. Set off to cool, then add the potatoes which have been mashed. Add
and mix in a half a cup of sugar, two tablespoons salt, and a tea cupful of yeast. I,et stand in a
warm place until thoroughly risen, then place in a lazge-mouthed jug and cover tightly, and set
away in a cool place. Two-thirds of a coffee cupful of this yeast makes four loaves of bread.
We didn't have any refrigeration and when she would get ready to make her bread she would
make a dough, her crescende ("riser°' in Italian), she'd fix the dough the next day, but she'd
fix that.
Reb: That was her starter?
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LS: That's right, and it would rise. The next morning she would make her bread and mix
that all up in there and she would cut up her pieces of dough and make it up into bread, and it
was good smelling.
Reb: Oh, I'm sure. Mrs. Scamardo, what do you remember about this yeast and this bread
making?
MS: Well, I remember my mother making her own yeast but I don't remember her making it
like that.
Reb: How would she make it?
MS: My mother used to make it...let's see how did she make that?
Reb: Let me suggest something to you that someone told me. They would take hops that was
used to make beer, they could buy it in some of the stores and they would brew a tea.
L5: I know, I used to go out and buy it for my mother, they called it Junket.
MS: No, that was for the cheese.
Reb: No, that was for something else, but this was the hops, the grain they used to make a
tea and then they would take the tea and cornmeal to it until could be shaped into a cake.
~ ,. - MS: That's the way mama used to fix hers, make so many of them. Then at night she would
make, just like Luke said, I believe she used to make hers with flour.
Reb: Nowadays they call it a sponge.
- MS: A sponge, that's right.
Reb: You'd make a sponge and when that would rise then you would add the flour to it and
work it.
MS: That's right.
LS: The old days aze much different than what they aze now.
Reb: I know it. And nothing smells better than that bread when it is baking. I'm sure that
you always had to have one loaf hot after it came out of the oven in order...
M5: We make bread now, it don't last like the one we used to make a long time ago. I used
to make bread twice a week.
Reb: Was it white bread?
MS: White bread.
Reb: What about your mother, Mrs. Scama~o, was it white bread, also? Was this white
bread made like the old French bread was made? Because that always had a flock crust to it.
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Did any of the early women make a French bread?
MS: No.
Reb: They all made what we called light bread?
L5: I didn't know what French bread was until we got grown.
Reb: Not until they told you that this is what they ate in the "old country!" We like it, I know
my daddy used to say that you need to eat that because it was good for your teeth and
gums...especially the crust.
LS: My mama used to make cheese.
Reb: Did she make the ricotta cheese?
LS: Ricotta cheese and we°d eat it right away. Then she'd make cheese about so big and
then she°s salt that down in a jaz, too. I'll tell you, you can't do with this cheese you buy. She
used to use it like it was or she would slice and fry ite
Reb: The fried cheese, yes, I know that.
LS: Now(adays) you put some of that cheese in a pan and fry it and it all goes away.
Reb: Even so we would take French bread and make bread crumbs and season them with
Parmesan cheese or Romano cheese and maybe some oregano. Then dip some of the sliced
cheese into egg and into the crumbs and then fry it.
LS: They say it and I believe it...the Italian people aze the best cooks in the world,
Reb: Well, you only have to look at some of us ladies to know that we enjoy cooking...and
eating.
LS: What I am trying to say, of course, we all know Italians like to eat a whole lot, but they
just know how to cook, too. My wife and I went on a trip sponsored by A&M College, for
ex-Aggies. My boys couldn°t go so they asked permission for my wife and I to go in their
places. And we went to eight different countries and we ate all kinds of food, but still that
Italian food was the best.
Reb: How many children do you have, Mr. Scamardo?
LS: Three, two boys and a girl. Hey, Pete (Son arrives) (Conversation re: fireworks and
Father Desdemondi). This fireworks deal was the time Father Desdemondi was here, Antonio
Desdemondi and he went to Dickinson from here.
Reb: Father Desdemondi?
LS: I knew him personally. He was here during World War I. I don't know what church he
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went to in Dickinson.
PS: What day of the week is this dedication of the Texas Historical Marker for Steele's Store
going to take place.
Reb: On a Sunday morning when everyone is off of work. Just tell them if they are working
they can drive their tractors over and get off and stand and think a minute about the Italian
settlers who came over. It will only last about twenty or thirty minutes.
M5: Where is it going to be?
Reb: Right here on Highway #50. Just about two miles from Highway #21 on Highway
#50. It°s located on the side of the road, on public property. The public is invited to this and
there will be notices .put out in various places. It won't last long because we will all be standing
on the side of the road. We'll have Msgr. Malinowski to come and there will be some Knights
of Columbus there. (Some of the discussion was not audible).........It's a beautiful language
and, just as I was telling Mr. Scamardo, World War II did a lot of damage as far as that goes
(speaking the Italian language). That was the reason I never really learned to speak Italian.
._ LS: I have a story to tell. When my wife and I went to Europe, as I told you, we went in the
_. place of my sons because they couldn't go, we weren't Aggies, you know, but they were nice
enough to accept us, so we went. Well, we met in Dallas and everybody had the date that they
_~ graduated from A&M since they were ex-Aggies. On our papers they had ex-Aggies, L.P.
Scamardo and wife graduated in 1948, but we had a retired Lieutenant from west Texas, he
was an ex-Aggie, he was on the tour and he read that paper and looked at me and said, "Mr.
Scamardo, I can't go any farther, it says here you graduated in 1948. You look much older
than that to me. You must have gone to college after you got old."
"Well, I'm sorry to say it's my bad luck I didn't get to go then, except for one thing, to pay
the bill." He was a retired colonel in the army. Everybody got in this Italian plane called
Alitalia, a brand new plane, so we met in Dallas..well everybody was saying, "I'll be so glad
when we get to Italy so we can get to eat some that Italian food" Everybody was so glad
because everybody liked Italian food so much and he (the Colonel) said, "Well, I°m not, I
don't like Italian food" Well, I was right across the aisle from him and I could hear him. I
said, "Well, there°s nothing wrong with that. Even some Italians don't even like that, it's just
a matter of taste. You either do or you don't."
After we got across we were traveling in buses to different towns and different places. Well,
one Sunday we were in Rome and stayed there for three days. Well, on Sunday, you didn°t
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have to be with the tour you could go where you wanted to, eat where you wanted to or stay
home. Well, like I told you, I can't speak much Italian, but I can understand it all. So I told
my wife, we were sitting down in the hotel lobby, "Honey, let°s go out and do some window
shopping." So we went out and did some looking around, since there was nothing to do there
and we went out and it was on Sunday and everybody was closed, you know. And so, he (the
Colonel) said, "Mr. Scamardo, do you mind if we go with you?" You see, he couldn't speak
Italian, so he couldn°t talk. So finally it was pretty close to twelve and I said, "Honey, we had
better find a place to eat, it°s getting to be eating time." He said, "Mr. Scamardo, do you mind
if we go with you?" I said, "No, not a bit, I'd be honored." So we went to an Italian place, a
cafeteria, and it so happened that the man who waited on us was the owner of the place. So we
got acquainted and I told him we were from the States and what we were doing. He thanked
me for choosing lus place, I said, "Let me tell you one thing. We got a couple here (they
couldn°t understand me because I was speaking Italian) and the husband is a retired Colonel
and he°s made a remark on the plane that he didn°t like Italian food. Let°s do our best.°° I told
him. He said, in Italian, "Leave it to me." Well, you know they have to cook all that spaghetti
and macaroni, but in meantime, they brought the antipasto: the celery, olives, cherries, the
green olives grown around Rome, the white wine, the red wine, a bucket of ice, butter, hot
rolls. You name it, they had it.
So we all got to eating. He said, "We don't know how to eat all of this stuff, but we are
going to look at you all eat.°' I said, "Well, just look at us and you will learn.°' So after awhile
here came the spaghetti, the spaghetti was in one bowl and the sugo (sauce) was in another
with the meatballs. Usually they brought two meatballs per person, instead they brought three
per person and they were big ones. The spaghetti was steaming hot. Well, they didn't have
any cheese, or sugo or meatballs in it (the spaghetti) you just served yourself. They watched
us, they put on the cheese, the put on the gravy on that and we ate the salad and we had more
than we could eat.
Reb: And so he ate it and enjoyed it?
g,Se He ate every bite of what we had there, and it was a big meal. So when we got out of
there I spoke to the manager and I told him we were glad to know him and he was glad to
know us and we walked out. When we got to the front door he (the Colonel) said, "Mr.
Scamardo, I want to apologize to you." I said, "What for? I don't know of anything you
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did" He said, "Yes, I do. Do you remember when we left Dallas and we all got acquainted
and everybody was talking about how good Italian food was and I said, I didn't like Italian
food..I want to take all that back. He apologized to me and said, "I'll never say that again."
He was from west Texas and every Christmas they send us a Christmas card.
Reb: Well, he had not eaten any real Italian food. I'm always happy to hear about people
being converted...absolutely.
LS: Well, he was converted. I mean he ate very bit of it. He didn't leave any of it out, and
we had hot rolls and we had butter not margarine and they brought cherries in big bunches and
green olives in big bowls, celery that looked like it had just been cut out of the field
Reb: And was this in Rome?
LS: In Rome.
Reb: Yes, it's just delicious food, absolutely.
MS: Everybody said it was fantastic and that Rome had the best food on our trip.
Reb:. I do want to ask your pemussion to use some of the material from this afternoon in this
book I am writing about the Italians of this area.
LS: Yes.
Reb:_ I want to thank you both for this afternoon, I have really enjoyed my visit.
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