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HomeMy WebLinkAboutDavid Coleman Transcription Part 1City of College Station Heritage Programs Oral History Interviewee: David Coleman Interviewer: Jared Donnelly and Brooke Linsenbardt Place: College Station Utilities, College Station, Texas Project: Veterans of Aggieland Transcriber: Brooke Linsenbardt Jared Donnelly (JD): This is Jared Donnelly. I’m here with Dave Coleman and Brooke Linsenbardt. We’re interviewing Dave Coleman. It’s September 2, 2015. Dave Coleman is the Director of Water for the city of College Station, also and Aggie, and also a veteran. Let’s start at the beginning. When and where were you born and what did your folks do? What, what was your family involved in? 00:00:23: David Coleman (DC): Oh, okay. I was born in Amarillo, Texas in 1959. And my dad was in the Air Force. He and my mom both were born in Pennsylvania and grew up there. My dad dropped out of high school, worked in the pajama factory and decided that really wasn’t. JD: The pajama factory? 00:00:39: DC: Hmm-hmm. Yeah. JD: [chuckles] Okay. 00:00:40: DC: Yeah, yeah. Making just you know, incredibly no money. And so he figured that probably wasn’t going to be the way to live the rest of his life so he enlisted in the Navy and spent six years in the Navy. And then coming back home, met my mom, fell in love, getting married. So he switched from the Navy to the Air Force so that he wouldn’t have to be deployed as much. JD: When did he join the Navy? You have an idea? 00:01:09: DC: It would have been. I’ll have to add things up. He was born in ’33, he went in when he was like ’17 or ’18 so that would be ’51. He was in the Navy for like five years so that would be ’56. JD: Gotcha, okay. Brooke Linsenbardt: Okay. 00:01:27: DC: ’57. So. JD: Early Cold War. 00:01:30: DC: Hmm-hmm. JD: Gotcha. 00:01:30: DC: Right. And then my sister was born in ’57 and I was born in ’59. JD: In Amarillo? 00:01:38: DC: Right. JD: What base is out there in Amarillo for the Air Force? 00:01:40: DC: None now. JD: Okay. 00:01:41: DC: It’s gone now. It was the Amarillo Air Base. JD: Okay. 00:01:45: DC: And it’s been defunked for decades. JD: Gotcha. 00:01: 48: DC: So nothing there anymore. And then my dad had a very unusual Air Force career cause he was in training and the Air Force has a lot of training bases in Texas so he spent his entire Air Force career in Texas. BL: Wow. 00:02:02: DC: Went from Amarillo, to San Antonia. We moved to San Antonio when I was like two. So that’s you know, really what I remember. And then he got transferred to Wichita Falls which is where Sheppard Air Force Base is when I was starting junior high. Which is seventh grade. The name’s have all changed now. I guess that would be middle school now. And he, he retired there in Wichita Falls from the Air Force and then went to work for the post office so that’s. JD: (Soldier-up: unclear) There you go. 00:02:38: DC: Yes. Yeah. That’s, so that’s kind of the background and so I grew up around Air Force bases and always swore that I was going to have nothing to do with the military because I didn’t like the regimentations, I didn’t like the short haircuts. But you, you know this is in the seventies when long hair was kind of the vogue. So anyway, I was going through high school, wanted to study engineering. Went to school for a year and a half in Wichita Falls at Midwestern State and then transferred you know, trying to decide whether to go to Texas Tech or A&M. Had some good influences there, I came to A&M. So it was really good. I met my now wife at Midwestern State at Wichita Falls. Her parents were from Wichita Falls and she was up there from the Dallas area going to school before she transferred to A&M. So she transferred to A&M a semester before me. I transferred down in January of ’79. And then got my degree in December of ’81 in civil engineering. JD: Civil engineering, okay. 00:03:53: DC: And I was working. I was delivering pizzas, grading papers, doing whatever I could to make money because we were not a wealthy family. And I got a call, I (was?) sit-sitting in my house studying and got a call from a Navy recruiter that said, “Hey. We got your name off of a list.” I was making pretty good grades so I made this list and they said, “We would just like to talk to you about the Navy Civil Engineering Corps because they have a program where they’ll, they’ll pay you your last year in school if you sign up. And I was like, “Oh, they’ll pay me? Tell me more.” JD: [chuckle] Right. 00:04:31: DC: “This. Tell me more!” JD: Sure. 00:04:34: DC: So you know. I, I, went and listened to what they had to say and it was really appealing to me because it would, you know, the promise of travel. [An employee of College Station Utilities entered the room. DC: Thanks Carl.] The promise of travel, and they have a policy of sending officers back for graduate school. And I was like, “Wow, that would be great to have the Navy send me back to grad school.” So I learned a little more about it. And the guy said, “Well just take the test. And then you can make your mind up.” I said, “Okay.” JD: ASVAB? 00:05:04: DC: No, it’s different. It’s a similar, but it’s for officers. JD: I gotcha.? 00:05:09: So um, I took the test. And it was specifically you know, for engineering. So it was tailored to the Civil Engineer Corps requirements. So I took the test, did really well on the test. And they basically said, “Hey” you, you know, “you’re in if you want in.” And so I went ahead and signed up and got paid my last year in school, so I didn’t have to work. I bought a motorcycle. Had a great time. JD: What kind of motorcycle? 00:05:37: DC: Uh. Kawasaki 550. Four-cylinder. JD: Yup. 00:05:41: DC: It was nice. JD: I have a CB-450 ’74. A Honda ’74. 00:05:45: DC: Oh cool. Cool. Yeah, went on a trip with a buddy of mine. We rode our motorcycles through Arizona and New Mexico, Colorado, saw the Grand Canyon. Drove through the mountains that summer of ’81. JD: Cool. 00:06:01: DC: So that was a lot of fun. JD: Um. About your time at A&M. So much has changed in the last fifteen years or so since Bonfire fell in ’99 that I think a lot of Aggies today, current Aggies, don’t really fully understand what life was like on-campus and sort of the experience of, of Bonfire and everything wrapped up around that. Could, could you talk a bit about Bonfire for you and just a little bit more about your A&M days? 00:06:26: DC: Yeah, I never lived on-campus. I, I lived on Montclair Street, right off-campus. And so I never really got that on-campus experience. And I was working my time in school, except for my last year. JD: Yeah. 00:06:41: DC: And so a lot of the, a lot of the people who didn’t have to work, you know, would participate. But, I never had time to participate in Bonfire cause I was either working or studying or sleeping. I mean that was pretty much it. JD: Gotcha. 00:06:53: DC: And so I, I can’t say that I really participated a lot in a lot of the stuff that, that A&M had to offer. It was awesome, I knew it was there, but I just didn’t have the time. Would go to Bonfire every year, it was a you know, a five-minute walk from my house. JD: Right. 00:07:09: DC: To go across the street. So we would walk. JD: It was in the polo fields then? At that point? In the late seventies, early eighties? 00:07:15: DC: Yeah. JD: Okay. 00:07:16: DC: Well I don’t know if you, if they’re really called the polo fields, but it’s the fields kind of behind the Corps dorms between what used to be Jersey Street. JD: Oh, okay. So that is the different, a different location then. 00:07:28: DC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 00:07:29: DC: Yeah. JD: Cool. 00:07:31: DC: Um. It was uh. JD: The polo fields is where Bonfire Memorial is now. 00:07:34: DC: Exactly. JD: Okay, so this was a different spot then. 00:07:36: DC: Yeah. Now you know, I’m not sure where it was when it collapsed ‘cause. JD: It’s. It was in the polo fields. 00:07:44: DC: Oh okay. JD: Where the memorial is. 00:07:46: DC: Oh really? JD: Yeah. 00:07:47: DC: See I didn’t even know that. JD: Yeah. 00:07:49: DC: ‘Cause I hadn’t been back to campus. I was out of the country. And you know, not around. So. But it used to be what’s George Bush right now, used to be called Jersey Street. And the Bonfire was, was right off, right there off Jersey Street. JD: Near the Corps dorms? 00:08:06: DC: And. Yes, right behind the Corps dorms. JD: I guess it’d be a parking lot now. 00:08:09: DC: Yes. JD: Yeah. 00:08:11: DC: Exactly. And so you know, every year we would walk over to Bonfire and it was just amazing. And, and of course stay until the outhouse fell and. JD: Right. 00:08:22: DC: You, you know. It, it was a great tradition. A lot of, a lot of work went into it and. JD: I guess by that point they’re already doing the wedding cake design, with the layers stacked up right? 00:08:31: DC: Yes. JD: Yeah. You see some early picture of, (some?) really early pictures of Bonfire and, just a bonfire, you know, trash and stuff like that. And then they got really, really intricate. 00:08:41: DC: Yeah. JD: They probably (worked?) well into the design by, by the seventies. 00:08:44: DC: Yeah. It looked you know, at that point, late seventies, early eighties, the Bonfire looked just like it did, like the one that collapsed. JD: Okay. Right. 00:08:53: DC: I, I really don’t think they changed the design very much at all. JD: Yeah, I doubt it. Yeah. 00:08:56: DC: It was, it was very similar. JD: Did um. Was there anything, did Bonfire every have any problems when you were here? Like leaning, shifting, having to be redone? Never? No. 00:09:06: DC: No. Nothing that I ever heard of. No. It’s just you know, the only problem was the crazy guys that would go up and light a cigar off of it. And had their eyebrows all burned off. I never did that. [chuckle] JD: Yeah. When I interviewed Doug Landua, I asked him a good bit about the, the Bonfire. He said, “They’re always worrying about the students doing something silly.” Particularly in the lighting period. I guess they dump diesel fuel all over it and then of course, the fire department was on, was on scene to deal with anything like that. 00:09:35: DC: Yeah. The rumor we heard was that they used contaminated jet fuel. JD: Oh. 00:09:40: DC: So it was just going to be disposed of. JD: Okay. 00:09:42: DC: And so where they get that? I, I don’t know, but that was the rumor. JD: Hmm, interesting. 00:09:47: DC: You know that we heard at the time. JD: I, I have no idea. 00:09:49: Yeah. BL: I’ve never heard. JD: Land, Doug, Chief Landua mentioned diesel, but, he wasn’t involved in putting in on there, so I, who knows? 00:09:56: DC: Yeah. And that may have been later. JD: With the Aggie lore, I guess it’s hard to track down a lot of these things. 00:10:02: DC: Oh yeah. JD: Yeah. 00:10:03: DC: Yeah, absolutely. JD: Um. Anything else about your time at A&M that, that stuck out for you? 00:10:08: DC: Well no. I mean it was, it was just, it was an awesome experience. The football games were always fun. JD: Yeah. 00:10:16: DC: Uh. You, you know, there’s so many of the facilities that didn’t exist then. We didn’t have Reed Arena, we didn’t have the Rec, we, none of that stuff. JD: Right. 00:10:27: DC: The only thing that was on West Campus was (entomology?). JD: Right. 00:10:31: DC: I mean, the Business School wasn’t there. JD: Was the dairy? 00:10:36: DC: Yeah, the dairy was there. JD: Did you, did you go to the creamery still? 00:10:39: DC: No, a lot of people went to the creamery, but I never did. They could go and get ice cream and stuff like that. JD: Yeah, I’ve heard pretty cool things about that. Uh, I, I think the train station was long gone by then. 00:10:47: DC: Oh yeah. JD: Yeah. 00:10:49: Yeah. So West Campus was really just vacant land. I mean there was cows grazing and stuff. JD: Yeah. 00:10:57: DC: And, and so much of the town. Like going south, I delivered pizza for Mama’s Pizza, which isn’t here anymore. It’s kind of like where Barnes and Noble is right now. JD: Okay. 00:11:07: DC: Parking lot. In Barnes and Noble’s parking lot. JD: There on Texas. Right. 00:11:10: DC: Right. BL: Hmm-hmm. 00:11:12: DC: Uh. It was great pizza. But. I remember going to the speedway. We’d occasionally get deliveries to the speedway. And that was like way out of town. JD: Yeah. 00:11:24; DC: I mean, you know, we’d call them up and say, “Look. There better be a really healthy tip involved here” ‘cause it was way out of town. I mean Highway 6 was nothing more than a two-lane ribbon of asphalt wedged in between tall trees. I mean you drive down Highway 6 and, and all you see is trees. That was it. JD: Yeah. BL: Hmm-hmm. 00:11:45: DC: South of town. When you got to 2818, you had the Doux Chene Apartments and other than the Fort Shiloh Steak House, there was nothing. South of 2818, but, but cows. JD: Yeah. 00:12:01: DC: And you know, the bypass was just, well what y’all call Highway 6 now, we call it the bypass. Because when it was constructed that’s what everyone called it, the east bypass. It was just starting construction. Post Oak Mall wasn’t there. The only movies we had to go to were up at Villa Maria and Texas in Bryan. At that mall. I can’t even remember what we used to call it. JD: But now it’s a shopping center with the H-E-B. 00:12:32: DC: Exactly. JD: Starbucks. 00:12:33: DC: There’s a Hastings there. Or used to be. JD: Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. BL: Yeah. 00:12:37: DC: But that was the only place to go to the movies back then. JD: Really. 00:12:40: DC: So. BL: So that movie theatre is not there anymore? JD: No. 00:12:44: DC: I don’t know. [laughs] JD: I’ve never seen it. 00:12:47: DC: I just go to Cinemark. I don’t, so I don’t know. BL: Yeah. 00:12:50: DC: I, I don’t think it is. JD: I’ve, I’ve not seen a movie theatre there. Certainly not a functioning one. 00:12:55: DC: Yeah. ‘Cause there’s no marquee. I think probably that Hastings was in that space. BL: With that space. 00:13:02: DC: Where it occupied. So, um, but. Traffic was much easier then. BL: [chuckle] JD: Got it. 00:13:10: DC: And I think the enrollment was just cresting 30,000 when I was here. JD: Right. 00:13:17: DC: And you know, everybody’s like, “Oh that’s huge. That’s unmanageable. That’s crazy. And you know, there was a lot of students, but A&M still had a real personable feel because whenever you would walk around on campus, everybody would say, “Howdy,” as, as you walk by. And you know, that tradition has kind of gone by the waste side. ‘Cause there’s. JD: Right. Where only the Corps folks do it. 00:13:39: DC: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s kind of a shame. JD: You mentioned the uh, the speedway. I mean that’s, that’s part of the ETJ now. It, it’s so. It’s basically the city already. 00:13:49: DC: I live back behind the speedway. JD: Alright then yes. BL: Really? 00:13:52: DC: I mean it, it, it, you know in a, some land off of Peach Creek Road. But um, its yeah, now it’s not far at all. It’s just, yeah, it’s just right there. But it used to be. JD: And that’s gonna be developed soon too probably. If everything goes through. Yeah, wow. 00:14:08: Yup, yeah. We got another meeting on Friday to talk about the utilities for the, for the Speedway mud. JD: The mud right. 00:14:15: DC: Southern Point is what they’re calling it. JD: Gotcha. BL: Interesting. 00:14:18: DC: So. That’ll be, that’ll be a change. But I mean, the, the city is just having phenomenal growth. JD: Yeah, it’s insane. 00:14:26: DC: So I graduated in December of ’81, came back um, one time, for a football game because when I was in the Navy, they actually stationed me in Houston. Which was funny ‘cause you know, in the early eighties the oil boom was going on. And um, all my friends were becoming petroleum engineers and making $30,000 a year. You know, that was big money. JD: Yeah. 00:14:52: DC: And I joined the Navy and all my friends were like, “Why, what are you doing that for?” I said, “I don’t wanna be just another engineer in Houston.” Right? So my second tour in the Navy, what did they do? JD: Stuck you. 00:15:03: DC: They transferred me to Houston. So I can get into that more if you want. JD: Yeah, yeah, we’ll uh, I, I guess um, if you finish that train of thought. Let’s go back to the, the, to the military bit. So um, I, I’m assuming you signed contracts, they pay you’re last year of school. 00:15:17: DC: Right. JD: And then you shipped off to training? 00:15:21: DC: Well. Yeah. Sort of. But the, the training was a little bit delayed. Um. Okay, the way it worked was um, graduated, you know, tenth of December. Right around there. And then went to. Didn’t have anything to do until I reported to Officer Indoctrination School in Newport, Rhode Island. In like mid-January. Which is just lovely. If you’ve ever been to Rhode Island in January, when you’ve lived your entire life in Texas. That was a shock. So I, I woke up one morning and my car was just a little mound in the white snow. Yeah, I was like, “This is unreal.” JD: What’s going on? 00:16:07: DC: Yeah. So that was only six weeks and they basically call it, “knife and fork” school. It was a school that they would run through the engineers, doctors, lawyers, nurses. You know, the professional corps that exist in the Navy. And so it’s you know, this is how you wear the uniform, this is how you salute, this is you know, teaching you all the basic stuff. It really wasn’t enough. But then I found out that my ultimate duty was gonna be San Diego, California. And so I went there and just got oriented for a while until I went to the Civil Engineer Corps Basic School which is in a place called Port Hueneme, California, up near Ventura, California. So I went to that school, that’s like two months. Came back down in the summer time in San Diego and started my job as a construction contract manager. JD: So were you a CB? 00:16:58: DC: No. The, the Civil Engineer Corps runs the CB’s. JD: Okay. 00:17:03: DC: But they’re really a different organization. The CB’s are enlisted guys. And they, um, so, so you have civil engineer corps officers that are the CO, XO, operation officer, first lieutenant. They, they run the CB’s. JD: Okay. 00:17:21: DC: Okay? But um, I never had a tour with the CB’s, but I did when I was the facility’s officer for the submarine base in Hawaii. I had a contingent of CB’s. So I worked. JD: So CB’s are only enlisted guys. 00:17:36: DC: Right. JD: Or, or are there officers also called CB’s or? 00:17:39: Well yeah. But you’re really a civil engineer corps officer. You’re working with the CB’s, but the CB’s are really the enlisted guys. JD: Gotcha. 00:17:47: DC: What a great organization. Yeah, awesome. Awesome guys. But, at any rate, so my first job. What I had requested and, and I got what I requested, I wanted to do construction management. You know, the Navy has a military construction program and we’re doing construction all over the place. And so they have a contingent of officers that work with a civilian staff for management of those construction projects. And so there I was in San Diego. There’s a lot of (word?) in San Diego. And I was assigned to the North Island Naval Air Station. And the base out on um, San Clemente Island, which is a bombing range. It’s BUD/S school for the Seals. JD: Oh, okay. 00:18:32: DC: That’s where the Seals go during you know, part of their hell week. JD: Right. 00:18:37: DC: And it’s a interesting place. But I worked on some great projects. I built a helicopter hanger and a helicopter pilot training school while there. And we did a bunch of projects on San Clemente Island. And it was, it was fun because San Clemente, there was a flight out in the morning and then a flight back in the late afternoon. Well we would go out there, our work was only a couple of hours. You know, meeting with construction contractors, checking on that kind of stuff so. What we would do is we would ship our scuba tanks out there. We’d have our scuba tanks ready. So we’d do all our work in the morning and then scuba dive in the afternoon. JD: That’s cool. 00:19:19: DC: And it was just, it’s just gorgeous out there because it was really pristine and beautiful. Lots of abalone. And it was, it was fun. JD: Did you know how to swim before going into the Navy. 00:19:30: DC: Well yeah. I mean, I was never like a swimmer, but I knew how to swim. But we didn’t have to do any kind of swim test or anything like that. JD: (Oh yeah?). Where did you learn to dive? 00:19:41: DC: In San Diego. JD: Okay, so. 00:19:42: DC: While I was stationed in San Diego, I took dive lessons and got certified. JD: On your own. It wasn’t, it wasn’t part of the. 00:19:47: DC: Oh yeah. It was on my own. BL: Uhh-huh. 00:19:49: DC: Yeah. So anyway, um, managed construction projects for two years. JD: So this would’ve been what, ’82 to ’84? 00:19:58: DC: Right. So basically the summer of ’82 to the summer of ’84. And then the Navy asked me if I would take this job in Houston because they were looking for a junior officer that had a lot of construction experience because they were doing a big, cost-plus contract on Diego Garcia. JD: What rank were you at this point? 00:20:22: DC: Okay, started off as an (NCN?), which is like a first lieutenant in the Army of Air Force okay? And then I was a lieutenant junior grade um, in, what, you know, in the Navy, which is an O-2. So I’m a lieutenant junior grade. And um, they asked me, “You, hey would you take this assignment?” I really didn’t want to go back to Houston. I joined the Navy to see the world. JD: Yeah. 00:20:50: DC: Right. I’m like, “Really? You wanna send me back to Houston?” But what was going was this big, cost-plus contract. JD: Could you explain cost-plus too? 00:20:58: DC: Um, most, you know, all federal procurement is governed by the federal procurement regulations and most everything has to be competitively bid. So when you, you issue a construction contract, you compete it, just like we do here with the city right? There’s exceptions. And so one of the contracting tools that you can use is called cost-plus. So what you do is you say, “Okay, Mr. Construction Contractor. Here’s kind of what we want to do, you go start doing this and we’ll just pay you all of your cost.” You have to, you have to give us an estimate of what you think it’s going to cost. And what we did was we said, “Your profit is based on how well you perform compared to that estimated cost.” So it was called you know, a merit award fee is what we call it. So, so we reimburse actual cost, but then they had to earn the award fee which was their profit. And so what we did in managing this contract. It was hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Uh, of construction going on. Diego Garcia is a little island in the middle of the Indian Ocean. And, and it was the Navy’s pre-supply strategy. They expected there was gonna be war breaking out in the Middle East and logistically we had no way of getting resources to that area because we just didn’t have any good forward deployed base. So the concept was, the Navy created this pre-position force where we would have these supply ships that carried everything you would need. And they would float around in the Indian Ocean waiting for something to happen. But they needed a base to come in and resupply and you know, all that kind of stuff. So Diego Garcia was chosen. It’s a British Island. It’s a British Indian Ocean territory. And so we struck an agreement with the Brits that they would let us put this base on their island and part of the agreement was that the construction contractor that we would use had to be part British. So cool. So we had these three companies form a joint venture. Brown and Root, Raymond International, and (Movum?), which is a British company, formed a joint venture and part of the contract was that they would set up a separate office space for these people from these three different companies to come in. And they would provide a portion of the office for the Navy administration staff. So that was set up at 11111 Richmond Avenue in Houston, Texas. And um, it’s you know, I’m like, “Okay.” But so, we went to the office and so what I did was logistics. I helped with the transshipment because they were getting stuff from all over the world. Like we got aggregate from Mombasa, Kenya. We would get labor from the Philippines. We would get, it was just the, the logistics of a huge construction project on an island so remote with no organic support, was just interesting. And like and water supply. They, it’s a coral atoll and so they would drill down into the coral and there was a freshwater lens that would ride above the salt water. JD: Really? 00:24:16: DC: And so they tapped, that was how they got their water supply was these shallow wells tapping that freshwater lens. So stuff like that was always interesting. JD: Was it enough to support the base? 00:24:27: DC: Yes. BL: Wow. 00:24:29: DC: It was. And then um, I’d get involved in the award fees. Twice a year we would have uh, an array of Navy brass that would come in for this award fee determination. And we would go through all the statistics of you know how, how’s there’s performance doing, how are they tracking compared to estimated cost. And I set all that up and got the, the Navy brass that would come in, I would get them any information they needed in determining the award fee. And so that went, that went really smoothly. And I would do all the documentation for that. And I got to travel out to Diego Garcia a couple of times. So I actually literally flew around the world a couple of times because there was a variety of things I needed to do and so I would fly like from Houston to San Francisco to Honolulu to Tokyo to Manila to Diego Garcia to Mombasa, Kenya or Nairobi, Kenya is where we would fly into. JD: Because you’re (agrocrete?) was coming from there. 00:25:39: DC: Exactly. From Kenya, then up to Sicily, over to Ireland, to New York, back to Houston. JD: Wow. BL: Wow. 00:25:46: DC: And it was, it was cool. JD: What was your time period for that? Over a couple of, couple of weeks. 00:25:51: DC: Couple weeks. JD: Yeah. 00:25:52: DC: Yeah. Talk about you know. JD: So you saw the world. 00:25:55: DC: You know how, you know how you can get jet lag? But what I learned is that you can get to a point where you’re so jet lagged, that you’re not jet lagged anymore. Your body is just so totally confused as to what time it is. JD: Sleep whenever you need to sleep. 00:26:08: DC: But yeah. You basically just sleep when you need to. So I returned from one of those trips and my boss who was a lieutenant commander, we would play tennis most lunches. That’s the only time that that son of a gun beat me at tennis. I came back and I was, I was just tired out of my mind. He’s like, “Let’s go play tennis.” I said, “You’ve got to be kidding.” Anyway. But it was, it was great. And there was a couple of the trips where I actually took some leave while I was in route. I stopped while I was in Sicily because I had a buddy of mine who was stationed there at the time. So I took. JD: Navy? 00:26:43: DC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 00:26:33: DC: Yeah. A guy that I had met in that basic school. So um, I took a week off because the flights were just every week, so it’s like, “Okay.” JD: Perfect. 00:26:53: DC: So I took a week off and toured around Italy and had a great time. So um, but the construction project was a huge success. They extended the runway. It was actually an alternate landing site for the space shuttle. JD: Really? 00:27:07: DC: Yes. JD: What was the island called again? 00:27:10: DC: Diego Garcia. JD: Diego Garcia. 00:27:13: DC: And saw a B-52 land there. And they’re just amazing. They’ve got wheels out on the end of the wings ‘cause they’re so heavy. And that’s just an amazing, amazing site. And, but the construction went very well. And we built all the support structure, a new pier for the Navy pre-position force. JD: I was gonna ask if you had to put in harbor of any sort. 00:27:41: DC: Yeah. It had. The island’s shaped like a crooked horseshoe. And so the lagoon in the middle, we had to dredge some. But it, it provided really good calm water for the ships to come in and doc. So. JD: That’s cool. 00:27:56: DC: It was, it was great. And the island formally when the Brits had it, it was a copra plantation. Uh, coconut meat. And there were tons of coconut palm trees, coconuts. So. But it wasn’t active anymore. But that was the history of the island was just as a copra plantation. JD: So they weren’t using it for any sort of support and supply at all either. Huh. BL: Were there, was there a large local population? 00:28:24: DC: Zero. BL: Zero. 00:28:24: DC: Population. JD: So uninhabited? 00:28:27: DC: Right. JD: How big was this island? 00:28:30: DC: Oh. Well if the road was good, it would have probably only taken a half hour to drive from tip to tip of the horseshoe. But the roads, especially on the plantation side, were terrible. So on our side, you know, we developed them, they were pretty good. But it no, it wasn’t big at all. JD: Yeah. But big enough to land a B-52 or a space shuttle. 00:28:52: DC: Yeah. Now part of that was because when we dredged the channel in the lagoon, we would take the spoils and build it up. So part of the runway sat, you know, kind of like San Francisco. Part of the runway sits on the dredge spoils that were put in and compacted. JD: Sort of what China’s doing in South Sea. 00:29:11: DC: Exactly. JD: Where they’re building they’re own (over?). 00:29:14: DC: Exactly. JD: It’s a, it’s a coral reef there, atoll that they’re building on top of. Yeah. Interesting. Are you familiar with that? BL: Hmm-hmm. JD: Yeah. 00:29:19: DC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 00:29:22: DC: The Taiwanese are scared. JD: Yeah. 00:29: 24: DC: As they should be. JD: Yeah. This is a, this is extreme show of force and definitely projecting their military power way, way away from the mainland. Be concerned. 00:29:34: DC: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. JD: Did, did was the base given a specific name other or was it just called after the island’s name? 00:29:42: DC: That’s an interesting question. No, I mean we, everybody just called it Diego Garcia. I don’t know if it even had an official name? JD: Is it still (manned?) today? BL: Yeah. 00:29:52: DC: I have no idea. I would imagine it is. But I, I really don’t know. I mean it was up until I retired from the Navy fourteen years ago. JD: So it was intended to be a resupply for supply ships, specifically for an operation that could potentially happen in the Middle East. 00:30:13: DC: Exactly. JD: Did it, was it in use for Gulf War 1? 00:30:18: DC: Absolutely. JD: Right. So they’d go up I guess through Persian Gulf from India, or from the island in the Indian and put them right there. And I guess they would stage out of. Where would they stage out? So they’d have all the supplies? 00:30:28: DC: Probably Qatar. Or I’m not really sure. [Brief Interruption: Request for Kleenex due to allergies] JD: So it was actually used for what they intended it to be used for. 00:30:55: DC: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Oh yeah. Yeah, and I did my little small piece of making it happen. So it was, it was a very, very gratifying. And then while I was at the office in Houston, I did all my applications for grad school. And ‘cause I mean, that was one of my main goals going into the Navy, I wanted to take advantage of graduate school. And so they have. There’s a. JD: And not a commanding staff college, but an actual engineering graduate program right? 00:31:23: DC: Right. Yeah. There’s a lot of students that come to A&M. I mean I, every year A&M probably has three or four of the Navy civil engineer corps officers. And that’s funny when I was thinking about signing up, they said, “Hey we’ve got one of our guys is at A&M.” His name was J.B. Hall. And I actually went and met with him about, “Hey what do you do? What’s, what’s it like?” And, and so that was really, really good. And I ran into him later. JD: Did you? 00:31:52: DC: Yeah, as a matter of fact. But, so the, the civil engineer corps program, they had a, a list of schools that they worked with. And they had a couple controlled enrollment schools. They would send a really small number of people to either MIT or Stanford. So I applied for that and got in. So I got to go to Stanford for my graduate degree. So it was really cool because it was trimesters so I got a better you know, variety of classes and it was a non-thesis degree, so I was able to finish up and you know, not have to. JD: In a year? 00:32:25: DC: Right. JD: Yeah. 00:32:25: DC: Hmm-hmm. JD: In, in civil engineering or did you I guess? 00:32:28: DC: Yup. Yup. JD: Did you specialize within that? 00:32:30: DC: It was construction enginerring and management was the name of the degree. And so, it was, it was kind of both. You know, some technical classes, some like we, took a class in construction law, which was really useful. But then I also took account-like cowboy accounting, which I don’t know of either of you’s an accountants but, I was not born to be an accountant. No, so. JD: We’re historians and historians definitely aren’t accountants either. 00:33:00: [laughs] No, no. But I got through it. But, so classes like that. And then I had the flexibility of going and taking a couple of classes in the business school. Yeah. Oh yeah, I took a very interesting class in the business school. Different world. Whole different world. I took uh, class in the philosophy department. Eastern, western concepts of self. It was interesting. So it was, Stanford was a great experience. JD: What year was this? 00:33:35: DC: ’86. JD: So you’ve been in the service at this point about five years. 00:33:43: DC: Right. JD: Right. 00:33:44: DC: Right. JD: Yeah, already getting to the M.A. program, or the M.S. I guess. 00:33:47: DC: Right. JD: Fantastic. 00:33:48: DC: Right. So with that, carried an obligation for two more years. Which, okay, no problem. So. JD: And you were lieutenant commander by this point? 00:33:57: DC: No, just a lieutenant, which is an O-3. JD: O-3. So a captain. 00:34:00: DC: Which is like a major. Oh captain, you’re right. Yeah, those other services are weird. It’s like a captain in the other services. JD: Gotcha. 00:34:09: DC: So, I’m a O-3. And four, you spend four years as an O-3. So I wasn’t up for lieutenant commander until a little bit later. And, so after graduate school you know, I was you know, where, where do I go? And I ended up an assignment as the facilities officer at the submarine base in Pearl Harbor. Which is right here. [points to picture on wall] My office was at the base of the dive tower. JD: Oh yeah? BL: Wow. 00:34:40: DC: Because back in the days, it’s not used anymore, but back in the day, they would actually train emergency ascents with this tower you know, that’s a hundred feet tall. They would fill it with water and they would actually practice. They’d be at the bottom, and they’d practice emergency ascents. So it wasn’t used anymore. So what we did was we finished off the top and turned it into like a party room. So we would have command events and stuff up there. It was a great view of all of Pearl Harbor. Now I mean you could see Arizona Memorial right there. You could see everything. So I was there for three years basically managing and planning for the facilities at the submarine base. And this was when they were coming out with the concept of the Seawolf: SSN-21, which is supposed, was supposed to be the new generation fast-attack sub. And the, the, the concept was modular components in the sub, so it was supposed to have a logistics hatch on the roof, where depending on what needed to be repaired, you could just wheel it out, pull it out the logistics hatch, put a new one in, roll it in place, and so you’d have very little downtime on the submarine. So then they’d repair that logistics cell you know, on shore. And so we were planning out for the, the piers because this was gonna require huge crane support, so we were doing all the planning for the, the facilities that would be needed for this submarine. And then. JD: So. It’s a (marine?) submarine, so you’d have to deal with all that too. 00:36:16: DC: Oh yeah. Yeah. JD: Right. 00:36:19: DC: Exactly. And so I learned a lot about radiological controls. And it’s a whole another world. These guys in the nuclear navy are in. And they have a phenomenal record of success. I mean they have zero major incidence in the nuclear navy. And it, it’s an incredible record of success. But they achieve it by being very, very careful, very methodical. And we, we had a public work’s employee that, that jumpered an air conditioning system in one of the buildings where occasionally they would store radioactive waste. And it became this, this you know, congressional. [chuckle] I mean we had to go through this process that was just unbelievable. Of, “what went wrong? How do we prevent this in the future?” JD: Right. 00:37:13: DC: But that’s how they have their record of success, with that kind of process. It was all new to me. I was like, “Dudes,” [chuckle] “let’s just put a sign on this panel that says do not jumper panel.” JD: Yeah. (DC talking at some time, not sure what JD says here?) Huh, wow. 00:37:28: DC: You know. Well that’s what we did, but we went through this process. But it works, it works. And so I got to go, you know, inside the nuclear subs. And inside. We also occasionally would have boomers pulled in. The nuclear ballistic subs. They’re huge! And we had a floating dry dock that could lift the submarines out of the water for work on the hull. And that was just amazing to see one of them out water. And uh. JD: This was ’87 to ’90? 00:38:01: DC: Yes. JD: Wow. Um. How much did world events affect sort of your day-to-day experience in the Navy in the eighties? So what I’m hearing a lot of, it, it sounds like a lot of management and, and not too much concern, not that you weren’t concerned, but not too much involvement in what’s going on anywhere. 00:38:23: DC: Right. The CB’s is the one branch of the Civil Engineer Corps that really gets involved in that kind of stuff. And they’re, they’re right up at the point of the spear. Other than that, the other functions of the Civil Engineer Corps are construction management and facility management. And so you really don’t get that involved. Um, the only time I did get involved was when I was stationed in Italy, which is that one (points to picture on the wall). When Desert Storm was going. A lot of the supplies came through Italy. So. But that was even, even that was just a peripheral role. JD: Yeah. 00:39:04: DC: So. JD: Did you notice the buildup during the Reagan administration in the military? 00:39:10: DC: Oh yeah. JD: So probably. 00:39:12: DC: Oh yeah. The Secretary Lehman’s 600 ship Navy. JD: Yeah. 00:39:15: DC: Oh yeah. JD: It’s a big deal? 00:39:15: DC: Oh huge. Huge. I mean and now the Navy is down to the lowest ship count since like 1918. You know, it’s. Well, keep my opinion out of it but, yeah. You, you’re, you’re exactly right. The buildup. And, and actually you know, President Carter did a lot. He, he actually had started to build back the military at the end of his career. But it was really you know, Raegan after that, that, that started to, to really build it up. And the, the 600 ship navy was the goal and we were going gangbusters. The military construction budget was fat. We were, it was a, really golden time. JD: Good time to be. 00:40:05: DC: To be you know, managing construction for the navy ‘cause we were building stuff everywhere. And so um. After grad school, went to Hawaii. Managed the ship, managed the facilities at the submarine base for three years. And then uh. Went to. I’ve got, now see the order is all mixed up in my brain. Um. From there, I went to manage the construction office in Newport, Rhode Island. So Newport is basically a training base. JD: Back where it all started for you. 00:40:44: DC: You’ve got. Exactly. You, yeah, and again, later, but you’ve got the Navy war colleges there, you’ve got the surface warfare officer school. You’ve got the lawyer school. You’ve got a lot of basic, you know, A-schools. The way the Navy works is you go to basic, for enlisted guys. You go to basic training. If you make it through it, then you go to an A-school, which is more in your specialty. So if you’re gonna be a hull tech or a sonar tech or whatever, then you go to those specialty schools. JD: Like AIT for the Army. 00:41:20: DC: I. JD: Okay, yeah. 00:40:20: DC: I guess. And so um. Anyway the, some of those schools are there in Newport. So it’s, it’s a very different kind of base. It really is more like a college campus, than a military base in many ways. And I ran the construction office. I had some officers and civilians, contract management. So basically I was in the same kind of office that I was in San Diego, except I was in charge of it, instead of one of the project managers. And so we did a bunch of construction. We built a new hospital. We built, I, I would drive my kids around and say, “Yeah, I built that and I built that.” And it’s a lot of fun. Lot of training facilities. We did a big renovation for the surface warfare officer school. We did a lot of barracks construction. Because during this time, the philosophy was how do we house our enlisted guys was changing. You know, it, it went from bunk beds in a big, open room, to more like a college dorm. Where you’d have your own bedroom and share, maybe share a bathroom with one other person. And so with those changing standards, you know, there was a lot of construction had to be done. Renovation in some cases, but usually demolition and new construction. JD: Really? 00:42:46: DC: So we did a lot of that. You know in, in Newport. And we also had at the time the first round of BRAK, brae—base realignment enclosure. And you know the way Congress. JD: So this is early nineties. 00:43:00: DC: Yeah. JD; Yeah. 00:43:01: DC: Congress basically abdicated their responsibility, their authority to an independent panel. The panel would recommend base closures and then Congress could either accept it completely or reject it completely, so it gave them political cover for you know, for their districts. So, “it wasn’t me, it was them.” JD: Right through BRAK hearings. 00:43:22: DC: Right. So what happened was there was a lot of. You, you know, when they would close the base, they wouldn’t just get rid of everything. You know, some of the functions had to stay so they would move them to other locations. And so what happened, right across the street from the Navy training base was the Navy Underwater Warfare Center. And it has a different name now, but that’s what it was at the time. And they did research on torpedoes, sonar systems, guidance systems. A lot of fascinating stuff. But you, you had a big Raytheon office right there. So they did a lot with Raytheon. JD: Raytheon? 00:44:04: DC: Private company. JD: Oh, okay, right, yeah. I didn’t know if it was an acronym for something. 00:44:06: DC: No. No. It’s just the name of a private company that uh. Anyway so what happened was in the realignment and closure process, there was a lot of functions that had to move to NUWC—Navy Undersea Warfare Center—and, but it all had to be done in a very short timeframe. And so the C.O. of the base came to me and said, “What can we do?” And so we developed this process of, of prequalifying a basket of contractors. And then what we could do, is we would take these projects just to these. I think it ended up being three or four contractors. We would take the projects just to them. Do a very quick bid process and then we had the choice of accepting whichever one we wanted. It was a very innovative contracting method, I lot of people didn’t like it because you know, it wasn’t you know, your pure, you know, design, build process. There was a little of a bit a negotiation procurement aspect to it, which you know, you tend to not want to do. But this was an unusual circumstance, this stuff had to be done very quickly. And it was a, it was a great success. We were able to, to get the new facilities built, good quality, on-time, within budget. And so it was, it was a huge success so that was one of my big you know, achievements there in that office. JD: Yeah, cool. 00:45:40: DC: So there for three years. And then um. See I got the order, I got a little bit out of order because what had happened was, as I was leaving Hawaii, I applied for the Navy War College. JD: As a? Next step in your position. Right. 00:46:01: DC: Right. And I was a lieutenant commander at this point. I was an O-4. And so I got accepted into that and so I spent a year doing the curriculum at the Navy War College. There’s like, every year there’s like three civil engineers that go to this school. Right. So um, fascinating curriculum. You learn a lot about national security strategy. You learn about historical stuff. You have a lot of study on, on you study the Peloponnesian War. And you know, and, and a lot about strategy and policy matches. You want to make sure that y-, y-, you, that you understand what you’re goal is and your stategy matches that goal. And it’s amazing sometimes how we don’t do that. JD & BL: Yup. JD: Like we have a faculty. 00:46:55: DC: Vietnam. JD: Yeah. 00:46:57: DC: You know. BL: Yes. JD: We have faculty at the history department at A&M that have taught at the Navy War College and Annapolis too at the academy. 00:47:01: DC: Really? Awesome. JD: Yeah, yup. 00:47:03: DC: What are their names? JD: Jim Bradford. 00:47:06: DC: No, doesn’t ring a bell. JD: Big time prof, I don’t know if he would’ve been then. But big time professor in, in military history, specifically Navy. BL: Yeah. 00:47:14: DC: Yeah. JD: I don’t think Linn has taught at the Naval War College. We have a Ph.D. candidate right now, some, somebody’s who’s in the program who is also an officer in the Navy who’s teaching at the Naval Academy, this year. 00:47:27: DC: Awesome. JD: Two or three year gig. Yeah, so we have, we have some connections with the, with the, the schools. The, you know, the, I’m forgetting the name now. What they’re generally called. It’ll come to me. Basically the, the military has a lot, all the branches have all these schools exactly like that. Air Force, Marine, and whatnot. And there’s actually a, it’s bugging me, I cannot remember the name. 00:47:52: DC: The National War College? JD: Um, no. There’s like a, a general acronym for the, the military schools. It’s passing me by. But I’ll come up with it later. But yeah, it’s a lot of interesting stuff. Talking to these places. So you did that ’93, ’94? 00:48:08: DC: Yup, that would be right. JD: Right. And soon you make O-5? 00:48:10: DC: And then. Uh, no. It’s kind of a mixed. I mean it’s viewed as kind of a career neutral move in the civil engineer corps because that’s not really our forte. I mean it’s really good in terms of a broadening experience. But it’s not. You, you know, in, in the civil engineer corps, they want you to, they want you to have your construction tour, your public works tour, your CB tour, a tour in Washington D.C. And you know, check this box. And, and war college isn’t really on that list. JD: So why did you do it? 00:48:47: DC: I wanted to. It was interesting to me. JD: Okay. 00:48:48: DC: I mean I, I really wanted to learn you know, the, the strategies. It’s fascinating. And I think, I mean, the stuff I learned there is applicable across the board. Now some of the stuff, you know when we studied you know, joint operations and how that works and. Which I actually ended up using oddly enough. But you know, it doesn’t really apply to anything outside of the military. But I’d say 75% of it does. And so it was a wonderful experience. So I graduated from the war college and then stayed in Newport at the construction office there. And, which, yeah, anyway. So, so that was really good. JD: So you’re a bit of an oddball when it comes to the engineers, in terms of your background training. Huh, yeah. 00:49:38: DC: Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. JD: Do you think that helped or was it still just pretty neutral? 00:49:43: DC: Well it. I mean, it was, it was great for me. It worked for me. But because once I got to be an O-5, you know, I was looking at well what’s my potential to make O-6, which is captain in the Navy. And, and I really didn’t see myself in that role so much. And the odds of me of getting promoted to O-6 were kind of iffy anyway because I ended up, just because of my progression, never doing a CB tour. Partly because I took jobs that the Navy asked me to take. In two instances. The, the tour in Houston and then the tour in Italy. Which I haven’t gotten to yet. They asked me, “Hey we want you to go to Italy.” I said, “Okay.” And um. JD: You twisted my arm. JD & BL: [laughs] 00:50:32: DC: Exactly. So I should have written this down. I’m, I’m getting it scrambled up. If you, if you want, I can, I can write it down so that you can decipher this later. JD: Okay. 00:50:42: DC: But anyway. Um. After the construction office in Newport. I was negotiating for orders and I got a call, “Hey we really want you to go work in Naples, Italy.” My, one of my bosses that I had worked with in Houston, was now in, in Italy. And he’s like, “I want this guy.” And so I’m like, “How can I say no?” JD: Right. 00:51:50: DC: Right. JD: And you’ve been to Italy once before just to visit. 00:51:18: DC: Just visiting. Right. JD & BL: Yeah. 00:51:19: DC: Right. I’ve never been to the base in Naples. JD: Right. 00:51:23: DC: I’ve visited Naples, but not the base. JD: Did that wet your appetite? Were you, were you pretty set when you heard that? Yeah, that’s cool. 00:51:28: DC: Oh yeah. I definitely. JD: Yeah. 00:51:30: DC: That was, that was awesome. JD: No hardship assignment I guess. 00:51:32: DC: Yeah. JD: [laughs] 00:51:33: DC: I really had kind of a country club career in the navy. I never, I never had a bad duty station. I mean it was great. JD: Yeah, sounds great. 00:51:42: DC: You know. So anyway. So off to Naples. And what I was was the planning officer for the whole base there. JD: What’s the base called there? 00:51:52: DC: Um. NSA Naples—Naval Support Activity Naples. And what it was, was it was a collection of dozens of cats and dogs. There was uh, the, what was it? The commander of naval forces Europe had a base there. Had, had an office there. There was. One of the operational commands had a, had an office there. And we actually had an, an airfield that kind of a small-time operation. But there was an airfield in Capodichino which was a little bit out west of town. But was just a, dozens, literally dozens of these little commands that were housed there and so that’s why it was called Naval Support Activity. It was a base with no real mission other than to house all these other people that had their mission. So that’s what we did. So we were in a place called (Vesuvio?) which was an old volcanic crater. Believe it or not. And it, you could see, it was really kind of cool. JD: The cone, yeah. 00:53:04: DC: But we were in facilities that were leased. And the lease was getting more and more expensive. And so the whole desire was to move to Navy owned facilities. And so the, the plan was to build military construction out at Capodichino because we could get a long-term lease from the minister defense, Italy. And um, then have all of our housing moved to a separate location. It was in different places. JD: Your, your residential housing? 00:53:41: DC: Right. For the military people, right. Now you had the option of living out in town which is what I did. I rented a, a house in, in a little (parco?). (El Parco Neuche?) was um, a, a man. Who actually, he lived out on the island of Ischia. But, we rented from him. We never even met him. We, we, so I went through third parties, but rented this, this villa. It was, it was cool. And there was a collection in this little parco that was probably only two dozen homes. JD: What’s a parco? 00:54:17: DC: It’s uh. It’s. Um. Just a little enclave. JD: Okay. 00:54:23: DC: Of a neighborhood. JD: Right. 00:54:25: DC: I mean it’s, it’s. JD: Within a larger town or city? Or. 00:54:27: DC: Right. Right. JD: Okay. 00:54:28: DC: So. It would be kind of like, we would probably call it a, a development. But it was smaller. It was, so it was like a gated community. JD: Okay. BL: Hmm-hmm. 00:54:38: DC: Okay. So, so if you could think of, uh. You know the one that’s over there off of Munson. What’s it called? JD: Grand Oaks or something like that. BL: Yes. 00:54:47: DC: University Preserve. JD: Okay, yeah, I know that one, yeah. 00:54:50: DC: That’s what a parco’s like. So it’s gated. There’s a few dozen homes. JD: New construction? Ish. 00:54:57: DC: No. JD: Oh so very old. 00:54:58: DC: Yeah. This house was ancient. JD: Yeah, I got you. 00:55:01: DC: I mean, it was ancient. JD: So it was probably this sort of enc-enclave for centuries, or for very, very long time. Not, okay. 00:55:08: DC: Right. Now there were some that were newer. There was a, there was one that a lot of military people lived in called Parco Azzoro, Parco Blue. I don’t know you know, where they got the name. It was newer. And that was kind of the favorite place for people to live. But this place that we got was just, it was great. JD: Yeah. And took your family obviously. 00:55:29: DC: Yes. JD: Yeah. 00:55:30: DC: Yeah. JD: Which by this point consists of? 00:55:32: DC: Um. Two boys. One that was born in Italy. JD: Oh cool. 00:55:37: DC: Yeah. So and he just graduated from A&M a year ago. JD: Oh cool, wow. BL: Hmm. 00:55:41: DC: Yeah. So anyway, what we were doing was. Putting forward all the construction projects that would give the operational facilities their own home out at this air base at Capodichino. And at the same time, we were running a solicitation for the housing project. So what we, it was, it was basically a, uh., leased to own type operation. So what we wanted to do was have a, an Italian developer offer us land and construction that we would lease for so many years, and then at the end of the lease term, the U.S. Navy would own it. And so it’s a little dicey. You’re getting into international law and all that. JD: So that could get a little, little difficult, for coming into a whole new system of Italian residential law and everything, yeah. 00:56:38: DC: Right. And this is one of those cases where you know, you’re in a foreign country and you really can’t take all of your American standards and morays and ways of doing business. They don’t necessarily apply in a foreign country. And. JD: Did you get any sort of cultural acclimation training or background (read up?) of. 00:57:03: DC: No. My, my billet, my job wasn’t language coded. Which means I didn’t go to the defense language institute in Monteray. A lot of people did. To learn the language. And so I was just thrown into the middle of it. And so I took a night class to learn Italian. But basically the people that I worked with, the Italian nationals I worked with, spoke English so well, that, there wasn’t really much point. Me trying to speak Italian to them would have been just a waste of time. So. JD: Well at least you can order in Italian when you go to a restaurant. 00:57:30: DC: Exactly. I did learn a lot. JD: Yeah, cool. 00:57:42: DC: And the food was phenomenal. JD: I bet. 00:57:44: DC: Just phenomenal. And the weird thing is, like the bread. You go a little further north, and it’s not as good. You go a little further south, and it’s not as good. The Neapolitan bread was just. Something about the water. Was, it was just the best. And they had the little road stands. Roadside stands for roasted chickens. JD: Really. BL: Hmm-hmm. 00:58:05: DC: And we called them road chicken. And then the pizza was fantastic. The food was really, really good. And it was fun because you know, at the time I had the two boys, and the youngest one was just as toe-headed as you can be. And he’s like a year and a half old. And we would go in these Italian restaurants and the people would come and they would just take him and walk around with him. And you know, ‘cause it was just, it was just great, great fun. Wonderful, wonderful people. Just, just a, a, incredible experience. JD: How long were you there? 00:58:43: DC: Three years. Got to know the neighbors. And we got to be good friends with them and their kids. And so that was, that was awesome. JD: You said your, your youngest was born there. 00:58:54: DC: Hmm-hmm. JD: Was he able to claim dual citizenship if he wanted? 00:58:58: DC: Theoretically he has dual citizenship. But. JD: The United States doesn’t recognize dual citizenship. 00:59:03: DC: I don’t think so. JD: Yeah. Yeah. But if he wanted to, he could claim Italian. That’s interesting. 00:59:07: DC: Yeah. I think so. JD: Have you been back since? 00:59:10: DC: No. JD: No, no. 00:59:11: DC: No, unfortunately. Now my youngest daughter who’s a sophomore in high school wants to go back. She want, “I want to go to Italy.” And I’m like, “I’ll take you.” So we’re working on that, one of these days we’ll go back. But I haven’t been back since. So anyway. So we’re working on this solicitation and um, we, the process was we received all these initial proposals, we were gonna call them out and narrow it down to just two or three to actually get into down and dirty negotiations with. And so we received like eight, nine. And there was this one that we wanted to get rid of because it was a big trash mound and it was too small. And the, it just didn’t work. Well I got a visit from one of the higher ups who said, “We really need to keep that one in there?” I’m like, “Uh.” BL: Was this an Italian higher-up or part of the? 01:00:12: DC: No, U.S. BL: The U.S. 01:00:14: DC: From our headquarters. JD: Navy or? 01:00:15: DC: Civilian. JD: Civilian. Oh, okay. 01:00:17: DC: And I’m like, “No. We, we. It doesn’t meet any of the.” “No, no, we need to keep it in there?” JD: Just as an option? Or it needs to be your choice in the end? 01:00:26: DC: Well it ended up being the choice. JD: Oh my goodness. BL: Oh. 01:00:29: DC: And it was owned by the people. The (Coppola?) family that also owned the property that we were getting out of. And so it was one of those, “Okay, I’m going to hold my nose and do this because we have to do this.” And I’m basically being told to do this. And. The selection committee really didn’t like this site, but it’s the one that ended up being selected. And so. JD: Did you have to convince the selection committee or did this higher up talk to the rest of the selection committee and let them know that this is what’s happing. 01:01:03: DC: Um. That’s a really good question. I’m trying to remember how that worked. JD: ‘Cause it would be more difficult if you were the guy saying, “I realize that this isn’t the good, but I’ve been told.” 01:01:12 DC: I didn’t write the final report. And I’m not sure how that worked. I know that, I know that it wasn’t me signing off on the final report. It was this guy from our headquarters and I, I can’t remember. That’s a really good question. JD: Did it turn out being okay, th-this spot? 01:01:36: DC: It was alright. It wasn’t. It had started construction when I left. And I saw photos of it later. And I think it really did turn out alright. It was way more dense than what we had wanted. It, because you know, uh, we’re not used to New York City style living. You know, most Americans aren’t. And, and that’s what it ended up being. And you know, in our, in our original criteria, we had said we want something of moderate density. You know, not this high-raise, you know, New York City style. But, that’s what it ended up being. And I’ve heard that people really like it and it’s working well. BL: Still today? 01:02:18: DC: Yeah. It all worked out. Well and this is, many years ago. I, I haven’t really maintained a lot of contact with the people there so. But it worked well. We got our military construction projects, started. Um, I was there to see ‘em start coming up out of the ground. And the whole thing was, was moving the right direction, when my three years were up. So. JD: You said it was a, a trash heap. You like, a landfill or. 01:02:48: DC: Yes. JD: Oh, literally a landfill. 01:02:49: DC: But, it wasn’t a landfill. They didn’t dig a pit to put the trash in. They just mounded it. Literally, it was a mound. And so, I’m assuming that they remediated it and got all the trash off. But, we were looking at that as a cost, that was, I mean just unnecessary and prohibitive. JD: Yeah, yeah. 01:03:13: DC: But it all, they got it all worked out. I don’t know. But. JD: Interesting. When in Rome huh? 01:03:21: DC: Exactly. Literally. JD: Yeah. [chuckle] 01:03:23: DC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 01:03:24: DC: But the opportunity to travel there. It was phenomenal. JD: The other question, yeah, where did you all go? 01:03:28: DC: Uh, went down to Sicily and went down to, there’s a little town on the, um, east coast of Sicily called Taormina that sits. You’re up on a bluff and you, go into a reasturant and you’re like looking two hundred feet down at the Mediterranean. And it was just, it’s just gorgeous. And I’ve still got some of the pottery that we got from over there. The inlaid wood, that plaque is inlaid wood. The stuff that they do with inlaid wood is phenomonal, down um, in, uh, going to Ser-[clears throat]. That’s from Sorrento. So if you go down the coast line where Sorrento is, it’s just an incredibly beautiful drive. And there’s a little town on the way called Vietri that specializes in pottery. And so we ended up with you know, all this ceramics. And you get to go to the ruins. And, and Pompeii I never really messed with. We went to a ruins called (Paestum?) that are much better preserved. And it’s just, it’s just amazing to step back a couple of centuries and see that and. JD: Was this place also destroyed by the volcano? 01:04:40: DC: Hmm-hmm. Yeah, the (Pasteum?). JD: And I know, I’ve only heard of Pompeii and Herculaneum. But I guess this is another relation, another town. 01:04:47: DC: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, just a little further down the coast. From Herculaneum. So, but we also drove up through France and into Belgium and you know, it was cool. So I, I got to see the Tour de France. I don’t know if you’re a cyclist at all. JD: I know of it, that’s for sure, I’ve watched it sometimes. 01:05:06: DC: So I got to see a stage of the Tour de France. I was there the year that Greg LaMond dropped out on the Loup de (Hussai?) stage. And I was crushed. JD: Wow. 01:05:17: DC: But I actually got Greg LeMond’s signature at the Giro d'Italia. So I drove up to one of the stages of the Giro, ‘cause it was a lot closer. And I was there early enough. And it’s much looser organized than the Tour de France. And so I was able to just, “Hey, Greg.” I said, “How’s your golf game?” He says, “Not so good these days.” And he gave me an autograph. JD: That’s cool. 01:05:43: DC: It was very cool. And I have that somewhere. I don’t know where but. JD: Was this still ’93 to ’96. 01:05: 49: DC: Yes. JD: Somewhere around there. Did you make it to eastern Europe since the war was over? 01:05:53: DC: Wanted to. JD: Okay. 01:05:54: DC: But because of the war, I wanted to go to Dubrovnik, Yugoslavia. And you know, ‘cause you can take the ferry across from Brindisi and go from, from the boot of Italy, the heel of the boot of Italy and go across. But, [noise] nope that was cut off because of all the unrest going on, with uh, what was it, was it, was that Tito? Anyway. JD: Well Yugoslavia had been, Tito was dead by then. 01:06:22: DC: Yeah. It was. JD: Or maybe. 01:06:23: DC: I can’t remember the guy’s name. JD: Yeah. 01:06:27: DC: Ku-, Khrushchev maybe? Something like that? Anyway. JD: That, it’s breaking up. Yugoslavia. 01:06:30: Yeah. And it, and so it was unsafe to go. So I never got to go to Dubrovnik. Wanted to go up um. JD: Well you had all the Serbia conflicts and everything there. The peacekeeping missions. Those were pretty crazy. 01:06:42: DC: Hmm-hmm. Hmm-hmm. Exactly. So I would’ve loved to have gone up to like Warsaw or you know, some of the eastern European countries, but it, you know, just never got the chance. JD: Okay, so you, you would have been able to. 01:07:00: DC: Later, yes. Yeah. JD: Yeah. But right when you got there, there probably would not have been. Even though the. 01:07:05: DC: Hmm-hmm. Yeah. So we focused on just touring around and, and. JD: Great places. 01:07:09: Florence. Florence is just the nicest city in Italy. It’s just, it’s just beautiful. And the artwork and the history is phenomenal. We were working. This is, this is a funny story. We were, we were doing some work on this one building. And of course the historic preservation stuff is always paramount. And we needed to demolish this set of steps to, to do this stuff. And we’re like, “Oh no, no, you know, no this is historic.” So we delay. And the historical guy comes in and he’s evaluating. And he says, says, “Nah, you know, these stairs are only like five hundred years old. So just go ahead and demolish ‘em.” JD: Oh gosh. BL: [chuckle] 01:07:50: DC: [laughs] And we’re like, “Only five hundred years old.” Whole different perspective on, on history. JD: I bet, I bet. 01:08:00: DC: You know, so. JD: It’s just, it’s amazing. Yeah, yeah, you’re dealing with a culture that’s been in place for a couple of thousands years at least, if not longer, yeah, and so geez. 01:08:09: DC: Yeah, yeah. And, and Naples is just a really cool town. They had cleaned it up. The World Cup was there right before we arrived. And so they had cleaned up, because we had heard stories about trash on the streets. And all that stuff. But they cleaned all that up. And yeah, the traffic is crazy. If you’re a timid driver, you won’t get anywhere. Because it, it, you, you just have to be assertive to get in traffic. And so that’s, I got a little too used to that coming back to the U.S. [chuckles] Anyway wonderful, wonderful experience. JD: Did um. Or how were you received by the population? I guess as an American, as an American serviceman. I guess right around the base, I’m sure it was pretty congenial. But what, what about other places you went in Italy. Um, if you were on official capacity. How did that? 01:09:02: DC: They loved us. JD: Yeah, okay. 01:09:04: DC: I mean, there was no. I mean, going out in uniform, people would just you know, talk to you. And, and they loved the Americans. I mean they, they really remember you know, the D-Day invasion, the Salerno, the conquest at Monte Cassino. I mean there’s a lot of American graves in Italy. And they all remember. And so they, they love us. JD: Well that’s great. Good to hear I guess. 01:09:31: DC: Yeah. And the same is true in the French countryside. You get outside of Paris and they’re, they are the same way. They remember. They, I mean, we stopped at this one little place, somewhere in France, in the countryside. They wouldn’t let us pay for the meal. They were like you know. JD: And you’re not in uniform at that point. You’re with your family and everything yeah. 01:09:51: Oh no. But, but, they know. I mean you know, they can see the car with the A.F.I. The Allied Forces Italy, license plate. You know and the haircut. And they, they know. They know so. It’s pretty easy to spot. JD: While I was in Lisbon, a little over a year ago I guess. When a, what do they call it, they were a bunch of Marines, but they were part of a, expedition force, I guess of some sort. On one of those, they were on tour, but they were headed some place. And docked in Lisbon and they, they had I guess a couple of days of leave. And the place was crawling with jarheads. And it was really interesting to sort of have the juxtaposition, because I was there for an academic conference and then had a bunch of eighteen and nineteen year old Marines running around. And I think everybody was so used to it because Lisbon’s been a port of call for decades. 01:10:42: DC: Oh yeah. JD: That it was just I’m sure, they dealt with it all the time. It was, it was pretty interesting. As an American to see. I, I traveled to Euro-Europe a good bit so I, I felt fairly comfortable. But, but to see people who were clearly in you know, the first European capital for the first time. And it was, it was [chuckle]. 01:10:57: DC: Yeah. But you’ve also got the big Allied Forces Europe office in Lisbon as well. I mean the main one is up you know, near Brussles, but there is, there is a big base there in Lisbon. JD: People seemed pretty used to it. 01:11:09: DC: Yeah. JD: Even though you got these, again, jarheads running around hollering and everything else, being very obviously not European. People were, people were pretty cool with it. I was surprised. 01:11:14: DC: []laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had our occassional ugly American. But, for the most part, no, people blended into the culture. Were very respectful of the culture and you know, did very well. But you’d have the occassional guy, you’re just like, “Shut up dude. Come on.” You know [chuckle]. JD: Yeah. Oh yeah. It was like that. Yeah. Gotcha. 01:11:36: DC: Yeah, exactly. So, but great, great experience. And then um. This is funny how, how hard this is to recall, what the exact order of everything was. JD: Yeah, this is twenty-plus years ago. 01:11:58: DC: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. And, and you’ve got be remembering so many little stories that. JD: Tell ‘em. 01:12:25: DC: Yeah. I have been. [chuckle] JD: Okay good. 01:12:08: DC: But the, I’m trying to remember now. So from, from Naples. Because let’s see. California. Kyle was born in Hawaii. Scott was born in Italy. So the way it worked was I went to the War College after Italy. Okay. So three years in Italy, then War College in Newport. And then I stayed on in Newport to run the construction office. JD: Gotcha. BL: Okay. 01:12:40: DC: Okay. So um. What I did then was negotiated for my next tour to be in Philadelphia, because the, the naval facilities command is divided in geographic regions. In the northeast region is that ten state area—New Jersey, Pennsylvania, all of New England—you know, that kind of that area. And, so I went to be the Operations Officer for the northeast region. And basically managing all the construction offices in the entire area. JD: Was the Philadelphia navy (yard?) still in action at that point? 01:13:19: DC: It was closing down. JD: Closing down by that. 01:13:21: DC: Right. It was in the process of closing down. The, the, the BRAK process was underway. But our office was near the airport, in a rented facility because we traveled so much that it was really good being close to the airport. So um. And, and I had to travel to all the different locations quite a bit. JD: In that ten-state area. 01:13:47: DC: Right, right. So basically managing the military construction proj-program for the whole region. So. JD: So you went from sunny southern Italy to northeastern United States. 01:13:58: DC: Exactly. Exactly. JD: Oh, the Texas kid geez. 01:14:02: DC: Yeah. And, and during that time. Of course, lots of different construction projects going on. Some good stuff, some bad stuff. We had a, we had a death on a communications tower up in Maine. And I had to go up and investigate that and. This kid, he was actually off-duty military, that was earning extra money in this contract and they could only paint in certain conditions and so they had gone up when they shouldn’t have. He didn’t tie off like he should have. This little elevator platform malfunctioned. BL: Oh no. 01:14:40: DC: It was horrible. It was absolutely horrible. But one of the big things going on at the time, was a new war gaming facility for the War College. JD: The Navy or Army War College? 01:14:53: DC: Navy. JD: Right, ‘cause the Army’s there in Pennsylvania too, isn’t it? 01:14:56: DC: It is at Carlisle Barracks. JD: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. 01:14:58: DC: Right, but this is up in Newport. So the, the problem was, it, it had gotten behind schedule. And the War College was planning their big global war games 2000. It was going to be this big deal and the project was behind. And the contractor was kind of struggling for a whole variety of reasons. And so there was Admiral Pete Long was the Provost at the War College. And so you know, I get sent up there to smooth things over right. JD: What rank are you by this point? 01:15:34: DC: I’m a O-5. JD: O-5, yeah. Which is a. 01:15:37: DC: Commander. JD: Commander, okay. 01:15:38: DC: Right. Lieutenant Colonel in the Army. So I go up there and, I still till this day don’t know what was going on. But I’m waiting in the Admiral’s outer office for this meeting you know, knowing that it’s not gonna be pleasant. And um, so I finally I get called in and he’s sitting at the end of his table. And the whites of his eyes are blood-red. Yeah, I don’t know if he had just had corneal surgery or what. But I’m, I’m looking at this guy, I’m already expecting to get my ass chewed right. JD: Yeah, he’s looking pretty terrifying. 01:16:15: DC: And, and I look at this guy and I’m like, “Holy crap, I’m gonna die.” JD: It’s the devil. 01:16:21: DC: Right. And um. He actually turned out to be just a great guy. And I ended up working for him. But, but so we met and, and talked about the schedule and what we can do and all this stuff. And he wanted to terminate this contractor because he had read some bad stuff in the newspaper about him. And y-y-you know, so I’m, I, I convinced him, I told him look, if we terminate for convenience, here’s what happens. And I ran through the process of what would have to happen. I said, “You, you’ll never get your facility on time that way.” I said, “We need to work with this contractor.” I said, “Look I know these guys.” It was one of the three companies that I had preselected to do the construction six years ago at. JD: So you had a relationship already. 01:17:10: DC: At the Undersea Warfare Center. I said, “I know these guys. Let me work with them.” And so we ended up, uh, we ended up having a, a big leak. Something froze in, in, we had a cold snap and something froze. And we had a pipe burst and it was a mess. But the contractor actually was able to get things going and, I was pretty much up there all the time at this point, managing this contract. And, and, and we got it open in time for global war games. They had to postpone it a little bit from what they had wanted. So it was a little bit later in the summer than what they wanted. But we got it going and it was a big success. JD: And you saved the day. 01:17:55: DC: Yeah. Basically. JD: Fantastic. 01:17:58: DC: And so then I was talking with their operations officer who worked for Admiral Long, Captain Tucker, Linda Tucker. And she came to me with her hair on fire. I’m like, “Captain what’s wrong, what’s wrong.” She says, “You’re people in the civil engineer corps, our facilities person is a lieutenant and they want to replace him with an NCN. And we, that’s not what we need, that won’t work, that won’t give us enough, the clout we need, it won’t work.” And I said, “Well captain, how about if you upgrade the billet, upgrade it to a commander and I’ll come and work for you.” And she, looked at me. And she said, “Are you serious?” I said, “I’m dead serious.” She said, “I’ll get back to you.” And that’s what they did, they made it happen. JD: Why did you want to work for them? -1:18:53: DC: Well it’s a long story. [chuckle[ But I had family in the Newport area. And uh, you know, I don’t know if you want to get into my personal life and all the stuff. But anyway. JD: It’s up to you. 01:19:05: DC: It, it really behooved me, this whole thing worked out really well. JD: To stay in the area. 01:19:10: DC: ‘Cause my kids were in Newport, while I was in Philadelphia. And it was, it was going back and forth. And so the opportunity to come up and work in Newport, I was like, “Throw me in that (briar patch?).” You know, it was great. And so, they converted the billet to a commander. And, and the you know. My captain. JD: So they like O-3 to an O-5 billet? 01:19:33: DC: Yeah. My captain said, “You know, you’re committing career suicide.” I said, “That’s fine.” I said, “Look you know, I don’t have my CB tour. I don’t have a DC tour. My chances of making O-6 anyway are not all that great.” I said, “So you know, this is fine. I’ll just do this as a farewell tour.” JD: Army know when you’re probably going to be separating soon. 01:19:56: DC: Yeah, life is great. So I went up and worked for Admiral Long and Captain Tucker. They you know, they departed and new people came in. And I managed the War College’s facilities and got their (nocompro?) military construction program for the future set up. And it was a great time. And I retired from there. And went to work. JD: When did you retire? What year? 01:20:28: 2001. JD: That’s what I was going to say. Before or after 9/11? 01:20:31: DC: Oh, well after. JD: Alright. So after September 11. 01:20:35: DC: I was, I was, yeah. I was in my office at the War College when news of the, the towers hit. And um. I mean, it was like you know, like everybody else. I mean, I ran upstairs and watched it on T.V. In Captain Tucker’s office. JD: Yeah. 01:20:55: DC: And just like, “I can’t believe this.” JD: Did you have the feeling that this was you know, “We, we’re going be on war pretty soon?’ Did you, did you think about that? 01:21:06: DC: Well, of course. I mean, I thought the same thing when they bombed the U.S.S. Cole. You know, I was working with a guy. He says, “Oh you know, this, this is a terrorist act.” “No, this is not a terrorist act, this is an act of war.” They bombed a military you know, U.S. armed forces. This should be an act of war. And you know, we didn’t really respond to it. And so, when you show weakness, that’s what you get. JD: Right. 01:21:33: DC: And that’s what we did. And so. Anyway uh. Yeah, I retired. JD: So 9/11, did, did it make you at least question your, or was retirement by then set in stone? 01:21:47: DC: It was set. It was set. So in you know the, what the military mission was to respond to terrorism was still way up in question. But the funny thing is this is exactly what we studied at the war college. We, we studied all these NGOs, the Non-Governmental Organizations, and the role non-conventional warfare was gonna play. And how you know, the adversaries of the U.S. realized they can’t face us militarily. They can’t play our game and. And everybody knows that. And so the expectation was that this was what was going to happen. Is we would see this guerilla warfare, that you know. And, and sure enough. You know, we expected attacks economically and, and attacks like terrorist attacks. Not, you know, the Russians aren’t gonna march through the Fulda Gap with tanks. You know, and artillery. That’s just not what the future is gonna hold. And so you know, did we adequetly prepare for it? I don’t know you know. The, the saying is that the military is always ready to win the previous war. You know, so we were trying to think ahead. And think, convert the Navy from a deep-ocean Navy to a shallow-ocean Navy. Because the littoral area’s where the action’s gonna be. You know, you’re not gonna have the old Japanese armada verses the U.S. armada. JD: It’s like keeping the battle ships on the, in the fleet. Really? What you are you gonna do with a battleship? 01:23:21: I, I don’t know. Steam around and look good. You know. That’s, show the flag. That’s about all they’re good for. Yeah. But anyway. So you know, it, the, the, it was very questionable what the military’s role was gonna be anyway. So no, and it real, it really was never a consideration. But, what happened then was I stayed in the Newport area and worked as a contractor for the Newport base. For a little while. But then I was approached by an officer I had worked with in the past, that was working for a company called LMI—Logistics Management Institute—and they were assisting the northeast region with a new initiative to privatize family housing. So I went to work as a consultant to the Navy. And it was just ironic. There I was, back in the same building that I had been in, when I was running the construction office for the Newport Navy Base, just a different floor. And, and helping them with this. JD: Working with your former (partners?), your, your, the new you. 01:24:33: DC: Right. Right. And it was, it was a huge solitication to privatize all the 5500 units of Navy family housing in the northeast area. I already knew everybody at all those bases. I understood a solitication process like this from having worked on the Diego Garcia project and, and the Italy project. And so I was like, “Yeah, I can do this.” I already knew all the housing people in, in the area. So [clears throat], I was a very successful three years, working to privatize. So we got the, we ran through a big solicitation process. Selected the contractor, negotiated the contract. [clears throat] Got everything set, awarded the contract, and then we’re in the process of um, you know, getting it happened, seeing all the renovation and construction going. And then the northeast region ended up on the next BRAK list. So I’m like, “My job is done here.” And so I started looking for other things and my wife, and our young daughter, our little surprise, had already moved back to Texas. So I started looking for work here in College Station and was lucky enough to get on with the city. JD: Yeah. 01:25:58: DC: And it was just, it was just a, a natural transition because the city is just like a really big military base. And the city is organized just like a Navy base. It’s exactly the same. The city manager’s the commanding officer. The deputy city manager’s the executive officer. Then you’ve got your department heads under them that are all—legal, public works, HR, you know, parks and rec. In the Navy, we called it moral, welfare, and recreation. I mean it’s the exact same thing. I’m like, “Okay I can do this.” And. JD: So, so who’s the mayor and the city council? 01:26:41: DC: That would be the admiral staff. JD: Okay. Yeah. 01:26:45: DC: Yeah. So, so, say for example, um, in Hawaii. The submarine base has the commanding officer, but you’ve got (COPSALPF?), the Commander of the Submarine Pacific Force. Two-star admiral that’s there with his staff. And they pretty much you know, have the, on important issues. JD: They have a say. 01:27:12: DC: We come up to (COPSALPF?) so the two-star admiral is the mayor and his staff is the council, and it’s the exact same thing. JD: I like the analogy. Yeah. BL: Hmm-hmm. 01:27:24: DC: And so you know, but the funny thing is the state procurement regulations are so much easier than the federal. I’m like, “Oh we can do that? Oh, this is great!” You know. So our procurement manager, (Cheryl Turney?), great gal, but I think she was surprised you know, when, when I, I think that she’s used to people coming in not understanding state and federal procurement law. And, “What do you mean I can’t do that?” I was just the opposite. I was like, “Oh wow, we can do that!” So it’s funny, but so it was a really easy transition. JD: So you retired in late ’01. Stayed in the (air? Area?) for another three years? 01:28:04: DC: I actually, my actual retirment was early ’02. Because it’s just, it’s just a stupid story. I mean, here I was, I was already working. I took terminal leave. I was already working my next job. And I go for my exit physical from the Navy. And the doctor starts poking around. And uh, he says, “You’ve got a hernnea.” I said, “Yeah, I wondered what that was.” It didn’t hurt or anything. He says, “You, you can’t retire until you get that fixed.” JD: Navy’s not going to let you go. 01:28:37: DC: I’m like, “Dude, I’m already working my next job.” He says, he said, “Look you’ve got no choice.” So I contacted the War College and said, “Hey, you guys have got to put me on, on medical leave.” They said, “Oh, okay.” I’m like. JD: Easy as that huh? 01:28:53: DC: Alright. And it was late, it was like mid-November. And so the doctor says, “Hey, it’s mid-November. We got people. You know, you, you can’t have surgery till early next year.” So the Navy kept me on active duty pay for an extra three months so I could get a stupid hernia fixed. And I’m like, “Alright.” So I continued working my, my other job. And then, went in, had my hernia surgery, and then my official retirement. And. So, it was just weird but. JD: How many years were in by that point? 01:29:30: DC: Twenty-one. JD: Twenty-one years. 01:29:32: DC: Well, if you want to count my time at A&M then it’s twenty-two. JD: Yeah, gotcha. I guess the official count is whatever retirement says you got. 01:29:41: DC: Hmm-hmm. JD: But, what was the question I had that. Oh, when you knew you were retiring. So I imagine you knew that for a little while. I, I assume you, you felt pretty good about your job prospects, your career prospects afterwards. You already knew all these people, you knew all these opportunities, so you’re really confident that I’ll be fine that next stop. 01:29:59: DC: Well you know, my [another employee interrupts]. Um. You know working as a civil engineer in the Navy, it’s directly applicable. It, it’s not like I was a weapons control officer you know, that has no counterpart in the civilian world. You know, everything that I was doing was contract management, personnel management, budgeting. You know, it, it’s all the skills that I use directly in this job. And the only thing I lacked was technical experience. I never sat at a drafting board, and did design work. You know, I never ran the sewage treatment plant. I supervised the people that ran the sewage treatment plant. And so in my interview, when I came here. You know, my, my former boss John. JD: 2005? 01:30:57: DC: Yes, exactly. July of 2005. My former boss, (John Woody?) who was running the selection, I told him that. I said, “Look. My, my skills are management, budgeting, personnel management.” JD: Contracts. 01:31:15: DC: Contracts.” I said, “That’s the kind of stuff that I really know well. I understand the technical aspects of a lot of this stuff, but I can’t tell you that I’ve done it.” He said, “Well.” He says, “We’ve got great people at the manager level. The technical. What we need is a department director that understands all that stuff.” I said, “Man, I’m your guy.” And. JD: What a perfect situation, come back to College Station, and there’s a spot waiting for you. 01:31:36: DC: He called me back that afternoon and said, “Come on in, let’s talk salary.” JD: Alright. 01:31:52: DC: So it, just couldn’t have worked out any better. I feel very, very blessed. I mean it’s worked out so well. And the city of College Station is just an awesome place to work. JD: I agree. 01:32:05: DC: I mean, talk about a great group of people. It’s just been a pleasure, for ten years. And I, I really, I tell a lot of people I’ve got the best job in the city. I mean, it’s, it’s awesome. Because we’re an enterprise fund. We generate our own resources. We’re kind of out here on Graham Road and so we don’t get caught up in a lot of the city hall stuff. But their there when we need them. And the support we get from all the different groups in city hall is phenomenal. JD: Right. 01:32:39: DC: It’s just, it’s a wonderful situation. JD: Tell us a bit about like big projects or big challenges you had being Director of Water. 01:32:45: DC: Well the biggest challenge was when I got here, the groundwater district had just stood up. JD: Could you explain what you mean by that? 01:32:55: DC: Y-y-yes. We are hundred percent on groundwater, which means wells. JD: Aquifers and such right? 01:33:01: DC: Exactly. Water from aquifers that we pump out of the ground. And it’s kind of a unique animal in Texas law. Most cities are on surface water, lakes, rivers. You know, that kind of stuff. So we’re a little bit unusual. And um, the state. Fifteen years ago, started recognizing that groundwater needed to be managed better because it’s a depleting resource. You’ve got up in the panhandle the Oglala aquifer that is being depleted. Then you’ve got some examples like San Antonio. The Edwards aquifer, which is a completely different kind of aquifer than what we have. But they set up the Edwards aquifer authority to manage that aquifer. And so the rationale at the state level was we need organizations that have authority over these aquifers to manage them so that they’re not just plundered. JD: Right, so for the interest of the whole state. 01:33:58: DC: 01:33:58: DC: Right. Right. And, and so the state set up the laws to enable groundwater conservation districts to be established. My predecessor, (BilL Reiley?), worked hard. Spent a lot of time in Austin, getting the law, you know, introduced and passed to create the Brazos Valley Groundwater Conservation District. And it’s just Robertson County and Brazos County. JD: What aquifer are we on? 01:34:24: DC: The Carrizo-Wilcox Aquifer is the primary. But we’ve also got the Sparta, the Yegua, the Queen City. There’s a bunch of minor aquifers. What, what we use primarily is the Carrizo-Wilcox. But in this area, it’s the Simsboro sand formation within the Carrizo-Wilcox. The Carrizo-Wilcox goes from Texarkana to Laredo. BL: Oh wow. 01:34:51: DC: It’s huge, huge. JD: Is it more difficult to use groundwater than surface water? 01:34:57: DC: It’s different. I mean, it’s easier and it’s more difficult. I mean you’ve got. JD: So someone just made a choice at some point that College Station. 01:35:04: DC: It’s what we have. It’s, the, the, we’re in a sweet spot of the Simsboro and the water quality is phenomenal. All we have to do is chlorinate it. And really we don’t need to do that, but it’s a state requirement. So um, that. It, it’s cheap, it’s plentiful. It’s the smart thing to do for a city in this area. It’s what Bryan and A&M do as well. JD: Right. 01:35:28: DC: Well A&M has some wells in the Sparta. We have one Sparta well, one Carrizo well. They’re a little shallower. ‘Cause the, here, the Simsboro’s at 3,000 feet. The water comes out of the ground at 118 degrees. We cool it off. We’ve got cooling towers up on Sandy Point Road, before we pump it into town and use it. But the challenge was. That the groundwater district had just stood up and introduced a whole new set of rules regarding what you, h-, what you have to do for groundwater. One of things was there was an acreage requirement for a Simsboro well. In the past, what we had done was, just go out and buy a two-acre tract, drill a well, pump it all we want. But now you had to own a certain amount of land to be able to drill that same well. And. JD: So it’s not just land in general in the county, it’s land on that, contiguous with that well cell. 01:36:22: DC: Yes. Over the cone of depression of that well. So. What happened, and, and, I don’t completely understand. But basically Mr. Woody, I mean, the way he explained it to me was he didn’t want to be the one setting the price for water rights in the Brazos Valley area and I was like, “Why not?” We went a few years without really addressing, adding to our water supply. During a period of like six percent growth. And stead-steady growth. And so our first summer, ’05 and ’06, we came real close to not being able to meet our max day needs. But we were way behind. I mean the planning that should have started. So luckily. Um, well, Mr, Woody departed. I because department director. And a fellow named Terry Childers came in as the deputy city manager. Terry Childers is just a great guy. He, he got it. I mean, I explained all this to him. And he instantly said, “Okay, we, we have to address this.” And so we started a program, we got in the budget to start buying the land, to drill the wells. We started programming, the funds. One, the one thing we were able to do short-term was drill the two shallow wells. They don’t produce, but maybe a third of what a Simsboro well produces, but it was a lot better than nothing. So we, we drilled the two shallow wells real quick, while we were in the process of buying the land so that we could get some of the deeper wells. So we went through a third party. We bought three parcels out in, out, in northern Brazos County. [pulls out map of water wells in the Brazos County that service College Station] JD: Oh here we go. 01:38:26: DC: And they’re all, they’re all right here. So this is Lake Bryan. Okay? And here’s our Sandy Point pump station. Here’s where our wells are. My little buddy [brushes spider off map] And um. So this is the first one that we bought. We call it (Hanson?) north. We bought it from Hanson Aggregates. We’ve actually grilled, well eight is in production right now. JD: Hmm-hmm. BL: Okay. 01:38:50: DC: Okay? We have programmed well nine. We, we purchased this (easement?). We own this, we just had to purchase the middle part. And so we’re going to be drilling well nine. The design is next year, the construction is the year after. And what, what we do is we track our water demands and make sure that our supply stays just ahead of the demand. BL: Especially because the city is growing and still growing. 01:39:17: DC: Yeah. Well, and, but see, that’s a mixed bag too because, a lot of the growth of College Station is in the Wellborn water service area, but a lot of it’s in ours too. So our demands are gradually picking up. And so we also have this property down here that we’re going to drill well ten. JD: So what is the surface of these properties used for? I mean the big ones particularly. 01:39:41: DC: Nothing. Nothing. JD: You’re not leasing it for cattle or? 01:39:44: DC: Th-th-the, these two are just vacant. This one, in the purchase agreement, we leased them back to the owners that we bought it from. (Mr. Rowe and Mr. Allan?) own it, and separately. But, and so, they every year, they send us a check for a, a lease payment for being able to use the property. JD: To farm or run cattle or something. 01:40:09: DC: They run cattle. JD: Yeah. And so these are, are, nobody’s doing anything with either of these. 01:40:13: DC: Right. Because these two properties were owned by Hanson Aggregates. And you can see the strip mines. See the strip mines here. JD & BL: Yeah. 01:40:20: DC: They, they literally mined gravel and aggregate. Gravel and sand from these sites. And. JD: Is there a plan to do anything with the surface? In terms of like park land or uh? 01:40:34: DC: We’ve bounced that idea around, but they’re so far out of town. You know we wanted to convert it to like a recreation area for city employees. But then the risk of liability. What if someone gets hurt? JD: (I bet there’s some?) good dove hunting out there. 01:40:49: DC: I. JD: Yeah? 01:40:50: Good fishing too. JD: Is there? Oh in the, in the. 01:40:53: DC: Quarries. Yeah. JD: Yeah. DC: 01:40:55: Hmm-hmm. JD: That’s neat. 01:40:56: DC: Yeah, it is. JD: So legal’s unsure about how that would go with liabilities. 01:41:01: DC: Yeah. So. JD: You could see the difference though in terms of size, the way they used to be. Gigantic. 01:41:05: DC: Oh, yeah. BL: Yeah. 01:41:06: DC: Oh yeah. JD: Yeah. Huh. 01:41:07: DC: Exactly. JD: Seems though that this is prudent in terms of your future growth, that the city having that much chuncks of land that isn’t, the, the surface space isn’t necessary for a well head. 01:41:19: DC: Right. JD: In the future with, when, as the population continues to grow, I imagine these would be pretty cool things to do something with in the future. BL: Hmm-hmm. 01:41:27: DC: Hmm-hmm. JD: (You’re? or they’re?) not making more land, you know. [chuckle] 01:41:29: DC: Right. And so we’re redoing the water master plan. As a matter of fact, last night I was reviewing the new water master plan. And they’re saying based on their projections of future demands, we’re probably gonna need well eleven. So we’re probably gonna look at buying one more parcel somewhere. And then um, at a certain point, because our service area is locked in, we plateau. JD & BL: Hmm-hmm. 01:41:53: DC: I mean there would be some redevelopment going on. Maybe some increased density. But in terms of any major increases in our demand. And that’s why we’re pushing our water conservation program so hard. And, and (Jennifer Nation?) runs our water conservation program. She’s made phenomenal progress, in terms of not only keeping the overall demand down, but keeping the peak day demand down. Because we have nine wells. And half the year, two-thirds of them are sitting idle. Because the summer demands are so much higher than the winter demands. And so one of the things we’re trying to do is cut down that irrigation demand in the summer. So that we have, you know, not as high of a peak. So we don’t have to have infrastructure sitting there idle. So, so. JD: Right, right. So this is a Sparta on, [points to map] th-it, wh-which means it’s in the Sparta Aquifer. 01:42:47: DC: Right. It’s about. JD: And that’s an old one. 01:42:50: DC: No. This is one of the ones that we drilled. Well old, that’s relative. JD: Okay, it’s a stop-gap. 01:42:54: DC: It’s like eight years old. JD: Okay. It wasn’t one of the original wells. 01:42:56: DC: Right. And see the Carizzo well is here. It was drilled the same time. These were drilled at the same time. JD: So well one is the. 01:43:04: DC: First. JD: Oldest. How old are we talking? 01:43:07: DC: Eighty. ’81, ’82. JD: So where was the city getting water prior? 01:43:10: DC: Bryan. JD: Ah, okay. Can you give us some insight on the whole switching from using Bryan’s utilities to, or their water, to, to College Station? 01:43:20: DC: Yeah. Of course, I was an NCN in the Navy in 1982 but the story that I’ve heard. JD: Okay. 01:43:26: DC: Now, so this is just urban myth of course. Is that, you know, since the thirties, College Station just bought water from the city of Bryan. And you know, that worked, worked well. It was clicking along okay. And um, there was a dispute in the late seventies, early eighties with the city of Bryan. And uh. See I really don’t know the truth and I really don’t want [chuckle]. JD: No sure. 01:44:00: DC: Be on the record saying something that’s not true. But, but as a result of the dispute, College Station made the decision that they needed to have their own water supply. JD: So was that the last connection in terms of utility with Bryan? Or had, or were there other things that we were doing in, with utilities with Bryan? Or, or was water the only issue? 01:44:19: DC: I think it was electric as well. JD: Electric, okay. 01:44:21: DC: I think that’s when we created our own municipal electric department. JD: Gotcha. 01:44:25: DC: And, and how that transition went, I’m not completely sure. But um, so. So we, you know, went out here and bought this property, built the pump station, and started pumping our own water to College Station. We still have several interconnects with the city of Bryan that are only used in emergencies. JD: Have they been used? 01:44:47: DC: Oh yeah. Sure. JD: So what kind of, like people running out of water or the pumps failing in someplace. 01:44:52: DC: Well what we do is let’s say, let’s say we have to do maintenance on one of the critical pieces of infrastructure. So uh, you know, the easiest thing to do is to just take it down and work on it. And, during that time period, we buy water from either A&M or Bryan. That’s, that’s most. JD: A&M does its own water? 01:45:14: DC: Yeah. JD: That’s interesting. 01:45:15: DC: They’re, they’re (wealthy?). I think I have a map somewhere that shows it all. But their well field is just a little south of ours. So I think they have a well right down here. [points to map] If you continue down OSR, it’s right. It’s just north of 21on OSR is A&M’s northern most well. So their wells are over here. The city of Bryan’s wells are like over here. JD: Yeah. So the north of. BL: So this is all the same aquifer though, that some of you guys are using? 01:45:48: DC: Somewhat. Most of it is. JD: Sparta, Carizzo and then. 01:45:52: A&M has a couple Sparta wells as well. They, you, you just don’t drill as deep. JD: So they’re kind of overlapping, these aquifers. 01:45:59: DC: Yes. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. So this was the biggest challenge starting off was to get our water supply up to snuff so that we had you know, a little bit of a buffer. Because for the first few years, if we had had one of our wells go down, we wouldn’t have been able to meet demand. Now we’ve got some excess capacity. So that if a well went down, it wouldn’t, wouldn’t hurt us. JD: Particularly if it wasn’t in the summer time. 01:46:30: DC: Right. Well. Yeah, the whole focus is summer time. JD: Yeah. Really? 01:46:33: DC: Yeah. I mean the thing is in Jan. JD: What’s the difference in volume? 01:46:37: DC: Um. Average winter time demands are going to be somewhere around nine million gallons a day. Peak day in the summer’s 25. JD: & BL: Wow. 01:46:46: DC: Oh yeah. JD: Major strain. I mean major strain, major difference in the system. 01:46:47: DC: And all that water. Yeah. All that water is just going out on the damn St. Augustine grass. And it’s a paradigm that’s gonna have to change. JD: Yeah. And so in your opinion is that different grass? Landscaping? Dealing with zeroscape or? 01:47:05: DC: Well what we promote. What we promote is, is plant a native grass. Bermuda. Buffalo grass. Zoysia Something that is actually native. Don’t plant this St. Augustine that yeah, it’s great in Florida where it rains every afternoon at two o’clock. JD: Stuff down here. 01:47:26: DC: Yeah. JD: Gotcha. I’ve got St. Augustine in my yard. And it’s. The first part was great because we had all the rain this summer. But the second I start watering it, it’s just (murder?) on it. Soaks it up. 01:47:36: DC: Yeah. Round up work on it. JD: On the St. Augustine? Then I’ll have nothing. 01:47:40: DC: I know, that’s the point. Then come back and plant Bermuda. [chuckle] JD: I gotcha. [chuckle] Yeah. 01:47:46: DC: So anyway so now we’ve kind of transitioned from water being the main issue. Now waste water is becoming a, a, a bigger issue. And it’s just, just because of the way things have, have evolved. We have two treatment plants and both of those treatment plants are starting to get close to capacity. So within the next ten years. JD: Those are out east of town right? 01:48:13: DC: Well yes. Carter’s Creek is east and Lick Creek is kind of south. JD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But east of six. 01:48:20: DC: Yes. Yes. And I’ve got. JD: I’m familiar with uh the Lick Creek one. I, I’m not, not familiar with the Carter Creek one. 01:48:29: DC: Carter’s Creek is right behind Emerald Forest. BL: Oh. JD: Okay. 01:48:34: DC: So. Hell, I’ve got a map somewhere that shows all the facilities and where they are. I think it’s right down here somewhere if you want to see it. JD: So the next challenge is going to be to find, or to develop more facilities, more infrastructure for waste water. 01:48:59: DC: And there’s more to it than that. Um. This is, this is not the best map to show it. But you’ve got um. Carter’s Creek is over here. That’s Carter Lake. So Carter’s Creek plant. This is a terrible map actually to see what I’m trying to show you. Well crude this is not. JD: We can find another time, that’s okay. 01:49:28: DC: Yeah. Anyway, what’s going on. We just briefed the uh, the uh Annexation Task Force on this. But what’s happening is all of the easy development areas have developed. JD: Sure. City’s matured to that point. 01:49:51: DC: What. What you’ve got now. The, the areas for future development in the city are down here on the southwest side and the west side. And, and the problem is that you’ve got the two treatment plants here. Carter’s Creek is here. Lick Creek is down here. Lick Creek was designed to be expandable. The capacity here at Carter’s is nine and a half million gallons a day. Lick Creek right now is two. But Lick Creek was designed to be expanded up to twelve. And so that’s where we’re kind of figuring our expansion will happen is down here at Lick Creek. But the problem is you’ve got areas over here that want to develop. But the topography is difficult and they’re a long way away from the treatment plant. Over here you, you gotta get through the city to get to the treatment plant and all these lines are already at capacity. They weren’t, they weren’t designed with growth out here in mind. You know and with waste water, you can’t make the pipes to big because then the flow is too slow. So you really can’t overdesign sewer lines. So we’re in the process right now of upgrading the Bee Creek trunkline. You know where Bee Creek is right? Kind of along 2818. JD: Right. 01:51:12: DC: And for all the development that happened out there at 2818 and Wellborn. You know all those apartments out there. JD: Right. 01:51:19: DC: That, that area is just exploding. JD: Yeah, oh gosh, the student housing out there’s insane. 01:51:24: DC: Yeah. And, and so we’re increasing the size of the Bee Creek trunk line to come across and get that over here to Carter’s Creek. And so the, the challenge is you know, we see where the growth is going to be happening, but how do we get that sewage to these treatment plants. So what we’re evaluating right now in the, in the waste water master plan, which has just gotten underway. Do we want to build a third treatment plant down here somewhere on the south part of town? Or do we want to build a, a, a, big, big lift station that would pump the sewage up here to Lick Creek and do the expansion here. How do we want to do that? And one of the issues that we have, is you, you’ve got a bunch of land out here that people want to develop, but they’re all moderate sized parcels. There’s no like 3,000 acre parcel that would have the resources of, of itself to build this big lift station and pump it over here. So we’re like. You know, the developers are clamoring for something so you know, the, the question that we’re going to be bringing up to city council is, “Council, do you guys want to address this? And how do you want to do it?” Because what we’ve told them is that you know, if you want the city to build the infrastructure, like build a major lift station right here that pumps up to Lick Creek, it would necessitate a rate increase. And we could recoup some of the cost if we make it an impact fee facility. “Is that what you want to do?” And, and so we’ll be, I think here within the next few months, briefing council on what our options are and taking their temperature. We have one councilmember that’s pushing this. But I don’t know whether the other six really support it. And so what we want to do is before we invest a lot of time and money into this, we want to take their temperature and see you know, do they wanna just laissez-faire, you know, let the developers figure it out. Or do they want to have the city come in and, and you know, provide some facilities that would incentivize. We could get partially reimbursed for those facilities, but not fully under state law. BL: So you have developers right now who want to develop this area, but you’re not sure how the waste treatment will? 01:53:51: DC: They, yeah, they, they have no way of handling their sewage flow. BL: Okay. 01:53:56: DC: And, and. JD: If they stayed in the city infrastructure. I mean they could put in, what am I trying to think of, I grew up in the country so we all had. 01:54:04: DC: Sceptic system. JD: Yeah, sceptic systems I guess. 01:54:06: DC: The problem is there are a lot of developments around, they’re on sceptic system. Williams’ Creek is a good example of, of, of very close into town development that’s on sceptic system. Indian Lakes. There’s a lot of um, homes there on sceptic systems. Then you’ve got all those developments down Wellborn Road, um, Bentwood, Scendara, Saddle Creek. All those developments are large lot. The problem is that the land values are going up so much that those large lot developments really aren’t economical anymore. The cost is so high that they’re not really going to attract. JD: And a regular neighborhood’s too small to have sceptics for every place. 01:54:57: DC: Yeah. You, you have to have at least one acre for a sceptic system and that’s according to county regulations. Okay. So, so you, they’re in a dilemma. You know the demand is for more like maybe starter homes or moderate size homes. If you go to the one plus acre, there’s not enough people that can afford that. BL: At the land price. 01:55:23: DC: Right. BL: Because the land is high. 01:55:25: DC: Right. Right. JD: Gotcha. Interesting. 01:55:27: DC: So, so there, there really. Sewer service is the key to making this work. They can, they can get electricity. They can get water. Sewer service is the bugaboo. So some of them are looking at maybe creating a mud, like what the speedway did. But the speedway’s unique because in that agreement, they build the infrastructure. They repay themselves with mud taxes, but once the infrastructure’s built, they turn it over to the city to own and operate. So it’s just like any other development, that th-the funding mechanism is different. Now some of these other muds, if they’re way out. You know, they may operate more like a traditional mud where they own and operate their own facility. They would much prefer to see the city step in and provide some facilities that would then you know, catalyst for these developments. JD: Right. 01:56:24: DC: So. What, what’s gonna happen with that I, I’m not sure. But that’s, that’s really the big issue right now that we’re, that we’re wrestling with. Then the other, the other big issue is back on water. Is um, you know, as more and more demands come in the aquifer, you’ve got San Antonio that’s gonna be pumping out of Burleson County out of the same aquifer, pumping 142 miles. JD: I was gonna say that’s a long ways. 01:56:56: DC: Yeah. JD: Wow. 01:56:57: DC: It is, it is. That project’s likely gonna happen. And so you know we’re, we’re concerned about what’s gonna happen in the future. And we wanna have a mechanism in place that makes sure the aquifer’s a dependable water and source and perpetuity. But how do you do that in terms of rules. So we’re struggling at the ground water district to come up with how do we follow state law, how do we respect private property rights, but at the same time, make sure that the aquifer isn’t just depleted you know so that fifty years from now, we’re just high and dry, literally. JD: Yeah. 01:57:35: DC: So that’s the other really big issue that’s going on. JD: How long does it take rainwater to make it into these aquifers? Particularly the like the deluge we had this spring. 01:57:45: DC: We’re, well the recharge zone is, for us, for the Simsboro, is northern Robertson County. And the water that, that we’re pumping out now. The hydrogeologists tell us that it’s been thousands of years in the ground. So it takes a very, very long time for it to hit northern Robertson County and get to the Lake Bryan area. JD: Right. Gotcha. So this is not something that, “Okay, we had a really good wet season three or four years ago, (we’re?) gonna help us out.” 01:58:16: DC: That’s the way the Edwards works, but not the Carizzo-Wilcox. JD: Carizzo-Wilcox. Now I guess of course there’s all the, all the cities in Texas that are off of surface water that has almost an immediate impact from heavy rain. 01:58:27: DC: Literally. Wichita Falls, my hometown. They went from, their reservoirs were at nineteen percent capacity. In six weeks they were at a hundred. Just phenomenal. JD: Yeah, it was incred-incredible rain. Fluoride in the water. Do we treat for fluoride here? Or do we add fluoride to the, our water? 01:58:48: DC: Well. We used to, but we stopped in 2011 and, for a variety of reasons. And this is always, this subject always comes up. Our water has a natural level of fluoride of right around 0.4 parts per million. JD: And this is specific to the aquifers we’re drawing them out of. 01:59:08: DC: Right. JD: So the mineral content in the area and all that. 01:59:10: DC: Exactly. The state, back in 2011, reduced their recommended level of fluoride to 0.7. We were in the middle of budget cuts. So the call came from city hall, “we want to know anything you can do to save money.” So we’re like, “Hmm. We know. We can stop fluoridation. We’re spending about 40 grand a year to add fluoride to the drinking water. The state just dropped the recommended level to kind of close to what happens naturally in our water.” You know. And so there’s. Y-. People are either rabid pro-fluoride or rabid anti-fluoride. I mean you, you’ve got both sides of the argument. But my take on it was, it’s clear that there’s no consensus. JD: Right. 02:00:07: DC: You-, there is no agreement about whether adding fluoride’s a good idea or not. JD: I see. 02:00:11: DC: You see there’s benefits. Okay, yeah. But there’s also, it contributes to osteoporosis. It’s not good for nursing infants. And I mean, non-nursing infants. So if you have a, a baby that’s formula fed, if you’re using the tap water to make the formula, they’re getting the fluoride, it’s not, it’s not good for them. So, so there’s those considerations. And so my take on it was in the absence of a consensus, how can we justify mass medication. I mean, you-you know, if, if everybody raised their hands and said, “We want fluoride.” Well okay, but it’s not, that’s not the case. JD: What was the recommended level prior to 2011. 02:01:01: DC: 1.2. JD: 1.2. And they dropped it to 0.7. And we were at 0.6 naturally. 02:01:07: DC: 0.4. JD: 0.4 naturally. Well, gotcha. Huh. 02:01:12: DC: So, so, the council voted six to one to stop adding fluoride. Councilman (Brich?) was the descent. And she just said, “These dentists are here telling us that we should do this. So I’m following their recommendation.” Yeah, I agree. I-I-it probably does have a benefit to your tooth enamel. But there’s so many other sources of fluoride. Brush your teeth. You know. It’s hard to buy tooth paste that doesn’t have fluoride. JD: Right. And they do fluoride treatments too at the dentists (each trip?). 02:01:50: DC: Yeah. JD: Is our water hot-hard or soft? 02:01:52: DC: Soft. Very soft. JD: Very, very soft. What do you think? You’ve probably noticed that. 02:01:57: DC: Oh, people that come from the metroplex can’t, can’t understand it. You know, they’re like, “I can’t get the soap off of me.” I was the same way. When I came here in 1979, I was used to water just as hard as rocks up in Wichita Falls. And I was like, “I feel so slimy.” And yeah, it takes some getting used to. JD: Sure. (So?) there’s a lot of minerals in the water. Because it’s softer. 02:02:22: DC: Well salt. JD: Salt, okay. Because you see. 02:02:23: DC: But not other minerals. Not like calcium. Or. JD: Like I said, I’m on Bryan water. 02:02:29: DC: Same water, same water. JD: It’s okay, yeah, same water. Yeah, ‘cause you get the you know, the buildup around your faucets and things like that. 02:02:34: DC: Salt. JD: Yeah, I gotcha. 02:02:36: DC: Yeah. Hard water’s magneiusm, calcium. That kind of stuff. Soft water’s the sodium. JD: Does soft or hard water taste differently. 02:02:45: DC: Well yeah, it tastes salty. [chuckle] And it doesn’t. JD: Do you notice a taste of saltiness too? BL: Yes. JD: Oh, I don’t notice. BL: I’ve noticed it largely. 02:02:50: DC: Yes. It doesn’t have that minerally taste. JD: I gotcha. 02:02:55: DC: And, and you know it’s funny, I’ve gotten so used to it. I’m actually on Wellborn water. But, at my house, but at any rate. The. I went up to Waco for a meeting and I was thirsty. I stepped into the, the little kitchen thing they had and a glass of water. And I almost spit it out. I was just like, “Gahh.” I, I just wasn’t used to it. The mineral taste in that was so strong that I, I really at first thought something was wrong with it. And I was like, “Oh, yeah, I’m in Waco. It’s different.” And that’s one of the complaints we got, because these kids come from Dallas and tweet that our water tastes like cat poo. JD & BL: [chuckle] 02:03:43: DC: And that was the genesis of the taking it to the tweets Youtube video. JD: Yeah. That’s great. BL: [chuckle] 02:03:51: DC: And so I explain that in the, in the little video at the end. JD: Very soft water right? 02:03:56: DC: It’s very soft. But it’s great, you don’t have to use as much shampoo. You know. And I’ve been told it’s better for your skin. I don’t know. I don’t like it because I feel slimy. But. JD: Right. Did you have another questions? BL: I’m, no, I’m, I’m okay. JD: We have, we have just, over two hours. I’m impressed, we got after it. 02:04:18: DC: Wow, I can’t believe you got me to talk for two hours. JD: Well, I’m glad we did. BL: [chuckle], yeah. 02:04:23: DC: My wife won’t believe this. BL: [chuckle] JD: Do, do you have anything else in particular, anything about the Navy or you know, being a veteran in College Station or working for the city. 02:04:33: DC: I mean, it’s, it’s wonderful to work for an employer that values veterans. The, the forsight that the city had in creating the Veteran’s Memorial. Their support for the Veteran’s Memorial group is awesome. And I just, I mean every year I go to that veteran’s day serve. My name’s on the wall up there, my dad’s name’s up there. And, and it’s just, it’s an honor. It, it, it’s just an honor to work for a city that has those values. And it’s a, you know, it’s the way things should be. I think, it really is, it is, it’s, it’s wonderful so. I just, I’m just very grateful, feel very blessed to be working for the city of College Station. JD: And close to A&M again so you get to back at your old stomping grounds. 02:05:24: DC: That’s right. JD: [chuckle] 02:05:26: DC: Go to all the Aggie soccer games. JD: Yeah? 02:05:28: DC: Well my daughter’s a soccer player so. BL: Yeah. JD: And Jeff does the play by play. 02:05:33: DC: Yeah. Well he hasn’t so far this year. But, yeah, I think he’s gonna get back into it. So. Jeff was actually our daughter’s soccer coach on her, on her challenge team, the travel team. Club soccer for a while, which was pretty cool. JD: A&M has a really good soccer team. Perennially. 02:05:54: DC: Oh they’re kicking butt. G. Guerrieri is the only coach they’ve ever had. JD: That’s right. 02:05:59: DC: And he’s phenomenal. They got some freshman in this year. Oh. Yeah, they’re legit. JD: Cool. 02:06:07: DC: They’re legit. We’ve only made it to one of their home games ‘cause we were up in Wichita Falls doing the Hotter than Hell bike ride this past weekend so we missed Friday night and Sunday games. But they’re, they’re doing really, really well. JD: I guess I got to go check those out. Yeah. 02:06:25: DC: Yeah. JD: Well alright, this is all we got. Go ahead and stop it.