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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPete Caler Pt. 1 TranscriptionCity of College Station Heritage Programs Oral History Interviewee: Peter Caler Interviewer: Jared Donnelly and Brooke Linsenbardt Date: January 8, 2016 Place: College Station, Texas Project: Veterans of Aggieland Transcriber: Brooke Linsenbardt Jared Donnelly (JD): Okay I think we’re in business. So this is Jared Donnelly and Brooke Linsenbardt with Pete Caler. We are gonna be talking about Pete’s time in the service during the Cold War in the eighties, in Germany particularly. And then just general stuff about life as a veteran in, in College Station. So, I guess to start us off is, typically do like a little bit like biographical information so when and where were you born? 00:26: Peter Caler (PC): 1964 in Los Angeles at L.A. County Hospital. If you remember the, the soap opera General Hospital? JD: Yeah. 00:36: PC: At the, the opening scene, that was the hospital I was born in. JD: Really? Huh. What’d your folks do? 00:43: PC: Both parents were teachers. JD: Grade school? 00:47: PC: Grade school and then, in the California Youth Authority. JD: Okay. Was your dad in the service or your mom in the service? 00:54: PC: My dad was in the service, yeah. JD: Which branch? 00:57: PC: Army. JD: Yeah. As a short-term or long-term at all or? 01:01: PC: Infantry. Two years. JD: Was he a draftee? 01:06: PC: No he was not. And he was stationed in Germany. Somewhere in southern Bavaria, guarding a, nuclear weapon site. JD: Really? 01:18: PC: Yeah, during the Cuban Missile Crisis. JD: Okay. Oh, wow so this was just before you came along then. 01:22: PC: Yeah. JD: Is there, sort of the military tradition in your family? 01:27: Uh. Beyond my dad, no I, I don’t think so. I know my grandfather was in the, oh in the Depression, what was that? That work? JD: C.C.A. or the C.C.C. or. 01:41: PC: Yeah. He was in the, the Conser-, Conservation Corps. JD: Civilian Conservation Corps yeah. 01:45: PC: Yeah. JD: Do you know what projects he worked on? 01:47: PC: Not sure. Not sure. JD: Yeah. They, they did, I mean, did all kinds of stuff all over the place. And the, the National Parks set up the way it is now so much of it was the C.C.C., it’s pretty crazy. 01:56: PC: Right. JD: Did you grow up in L.A. County? 02:00: PC: Yeah. Yeah, till I was about seven or eight, we were actually in Los Angeles Proper. And then after that we moved, up north into the high desert around, close to Edwards Air Force Base. In that area. JD: And your parents were still teaching? 02:20: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. Do you know what subjects? Do you remember what subjects they taught? 02:23: PC: For my dad, I know it was Language Arts. JD: Oh okay. 02:27: PC: English, things like that. JD: And your mom? 02:31: PC: Can’t remember. JD: Yeah. 02:33: PC: I think similar. JD: Okay. 02:34: PC: Yeah. JD: So, what motivated you to go into the service? 02:38: PC: Um. I got out of high school. I was working, I was working at an amusement park, driving the train. Six Flags Magic Mountain. JD: Yeah. 02:52: PC: An-, a-, and. I just, I didn’t, I wasn’t ready for college. And I needed to do something, so I thought, “Well” you know, “this is a way I can see some of the world. And maybe learn some skills” and all that. JD: This is when, what ’82? 03:08: PC: ’82 is when I graduated from high school yeah. JD: Yeah. So you graduated and then that summer workin’ at the amusement park and then decided to go. 03:15: PC: Ye-, yeah. I actually went to basic April of 1983. JD: Did, did you choose the Army for any reason in particular or is it, they were just, they were taking people. 03:28: PC: My dad had been in. JD: Yeah. 03:30: PC: You know. JD: So what was boot camp like in a, a post-Vietnam army? I mean I can imagine it was rather different than, than your dad’s experience in basic. 03:38: PC: Yeah. I mean, they couldn’t take you out back and, and, administer corporal punishment so to speak. JD: Right. 03:47: PC: But. It was still pretty, it was pretty tough. I did basic and advanced training all in one group at, at Fort Knox, Kentucky. JD: Oh ‘cause you went armor that’s right. 03:59: PC: Right. Right. JD: My, grandfather’s brother, so my great-uncle, was a platoon leader, First Lieutenant, in, the 4th Armor, under Patton. Was in 37 Tank Battalion, who his commanding officer was Grant Abrams. And he was killed in September of ’44, near the French, German border in his tank. And they put, they named one of the tank ranges at Fort Knox after him. The Donnelly, the Donnelly Range. 04:26: PC: Yeah I know it. JD: Yeah! 04:28: PC: Yeah. JD: It, it was named after him. We got a picture of my, my great-grandmother and some captain in the late forties, early fifties in front of it and that’s the only thing I’ve ever seen of it. And I actually did a lot of Google searching a couple years ago to trying to figure out, does this thing really exist anymore and all that and sure enough! 04:43: PC: It does. JD: Yeah. 04:44: PC: It does. JD: Is it just like a firing range or an operating range, do you remember? 04:48: PC: It’s a huge tank range. In fact, during our advanced training, that was the, that was our final, our final deployment. Was goin’ out there and, and, and doin’ gunnery practice. JD: On the Donnelly Tank Range? 05:04: PC: Yeah. JD: That’s hilarious. Well there you go, that’s, that’s who it’s named after. 05:07: PC: That’s great. HD: Yeah [chuckle]. So, did you get a cho-, like a choice for armor or is, or I mean was that one of the, one of those things you guys picked which branch it is? 05:16: PC: Ye-, yeah, I mean, they gave me a, a range of choices. It was really the one that, that was gonna open up the soonest. JD: Okay. 05:24: PC: If I remember there was a Pershing Missile Technician slot, but I was gonna have to wait like six months or something and, yeah. JD: Right. So did you specifically not want to go infantry? You wanted something more technical? 05:36: PC: I did not wanna walk. JD: Did not wanna walk. 05:38: PC: Yeah. JD: [chuckle] 05:40: PC: Did not want to sleep on the ground. JD: Yeah. 05:43: PC: Yeah. JD: What were you guys usin’ them? 05:46: PC: Yeah, believe it or not. So you know I spent, I think it was like fifteen weeks training on a M60-A3s. Right. JD: What do they call those? Is that the Patton? 05:57: PC: I think so. JD: Yeah. 06:00: PC: But. Yeah, so I, I spent fifteen weeks training then you know, I graduated from, from basic, and went to Germany, and my entire operational experience with the M60, was driving it up on to a Lowboy so they could ship it back to the United States because we went to the Abrams. As soon as I got there. JD: But the, but the M60s were still sittin’ around in Germany. 06:29: PC: At the time yeah. They were, and we went to transition almost as soon as I got, I got in. JD: Really? So you never trained on one in, in, in the States? 06:37: PC: No, no. JD: All your training in, in, in. 06:39: PC: I’d seen ‘em. I think, they were focusing on the Marines at the time. And I, I remember when we were doin’ that final gunnery there was a, a Marine unit there that was, that was doing gunnery practice with one. But, yeah. JD: Yeah. What was your job in the tank? 06:56: PC: Started off as a loader. Graduated to driver and then you know, through the years and I became a gunner and then tank commander. JD: How many, how, how, it was the crew on the M-60 and then how, what was? 07:11: PC: Four and four. JD: Four and four. 07:12: PC: Yeah, they were the same. JD: I’m pretty sure the Sherman had. Was it four or was it five? 07:16: PC: No it had an extra guy in the, in the hull. A machine gunner. JD: Oh was that the, what do they call it? 07:24: PC: The M-4 is what, what you’re talking about. The Sherman. JD: Uh, yes. Uh, I meant the, which gunner, was the, coaxial, is that it, in? Anyway, the extra. 07:33: PC: Coaxials is, is fired by the gunner. JD: Okay. 07:37: PC: But the M4 Sherman had a hull, machine gun also. JD: Right. Like a .30 cal or something like that. 07:42: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. Um. Given the environment of, of sort of the late stages of the Cold War and, I think by that time S.A.L.T. II was going on. Stra-, Strategic Arms Limitations Treaty II so like, you, you just finished with détente and now Reagan comes in and so its stuff spikes up again. Did you, and growing up as a child of the Cold War basically, did, did you sort of have that, ever feeling presence of you know this is, works it cou-, we’re gonna fight the Russians at some point or? 08:14: PC: Yeah when I was growing up in, in L.A., we, we had the air raid siren, practice. Duck and cover. JD: You guys did duck and cover too? 08:24: PC: Oh yeah. All that stuff. I mean, and in southern California it was for dual reasons because, earthquakes too. And it was, you know, used the same tactics to protect yourself from an earthquake. But yeah I remember them, vividly. Especially the sirens as a kid. Yeah always, as I grew up I always expected it at some point. JD: That go fight the Russians at some period. 08:53: PC: Yeah, yeah. JD: Was there a sense of. 08:57: Brooke Linsenbardt (BL): How often did the sirens go off? Like, when you practice? 09:00: PC: I think it was monthly. BL: Monthly? 09:02: PC: Yeah. I think every thirty days, they did ‘em. JD: We have storm sirens here don’t we? 09:08: PC: No. JD: We don’t, okay. 09:10: PC: No. JD: Did we, did we at one point? ‘Cause I, I’ve got some stuff in the archive that talks about the, the, the range I guess of the warning sirens that were in the area, this was like from, I think the seventies at the latest. 09:24: PC: Yeah I didn’t get here till the nineties. I knew by then we, we didn’t have them. And of course with technology they’re, they’re obsolete now. JD: Right, definitely. I guess, did you ever, being the fact that it, the Cold War had gone for basically your whole life by that point and the U.S. for a long time seemed to always kind of have, at least fr-, from my perception, always had the upper hand at least, culturally think that we always had the upper hand. Did you have a sense of superiority in terms of if this does come to a fight, we’re easily gonna knock these guys out? 09:58: PC: Oh no. JD: No, okay. 09:59: PC: No. Being stationed on the border. You know, I was in the, second squadron, eleventh armored cavalry regiment, based on in Bad Kissingen, Germany. Which was, probably about thirty klicks from the border. And then we had a forward, border operations camp that, that we rotated into. JD: Right. 10:23: PC: By troops. We definitely thought that we would be, we would last probably about two and a half, three minutes? JD: Oh from a nuclear strike? 10:35: PC: No. JD: Or just from the, assault itself? 10:36: PC: Yeah. JD: Wow. 10:38: PC: Yeah we, the nukes would go off behind us. JD: Wow. Do you know what units you faced? 10:45: PC: Ah, man I, you know I was thinking about it a couple of days ago. We were just south of the Fulda Gap. I wanna say whatever unit it was, was based in Meiningen, if I remember right. But, but I know it, we at least had a division facing us. JD: And you were just a regiment? 11:06: PC: Just a squadron. JD: A squadron but, part of the area you were in. Oh, so your squadron was one on one against a. 11:12: PC: A division. JD: Geez. 11:14: PC: Yeah and I kno-, I know they had a lot of, a lot of, rocket troops. And we figured that, even before we, we came into actual direct contact with, with armor, that we’d probably lose most of our, our folks due to artillery. JD: Wow. And this is one of the things that like. Was, this was, you know, the, the privates talking about this or was this like from the command down, this is what you should expect? 11:46: PC: Hmm-hmm. JD: Really? 11:47: PC: It was, it was a given. Our, our job was to de-, delay ‘em for, for a couple minutes. JD: Wow. 11:54: PC: Just so that, you know the big stuff behind us, could get organized and, and get goin’. JD: When you say big stuff, what do you mean by that? 12:01: PC: Talking about full divisions that were, that were further back in Schweinfurt and, and, yeah. BL: Did you have any contact with that division at all? With the Russian division, was there? 12:16: PC: No it was. I mean we, we, we observed ‘em on the border all the time. We had, we had, ground based radar and stuff at our border observation posts and we could watch ‘em maneuver and things like that. But, really the only face to face contact we had was, with the East German border guards. JD: Right. 12:39: PC: Yeah. We had a lot of contact with them. JD: What was the border like, physically? 12:44: PC: Physically? So if you’re standing there in front of it, the first thing you have are, there’s the 1-K warning zone. So one klick out from the border. If you’re, U.S. military and you’re not on a mission, you’re not allowed to go beyond that point. JD: And this is a kilometer within the West Germany border? 13:07: PC: Yes. From there, I’d say probably, and it, and it varied. The fence may be straight but the, we, we had a set of what, what’s called these plastic, or fiberglass barbered poles. That were actual, the actual border. Because the security features were actually well within East Germany. JD: Right. 13:31: PC: So when we were on border patrol or anything like that, you, you had to make sure that you didn’t, you didn’t go within the barbered poles. Because you, you were literally on East German ground and you know, you, you, you’d basically just, just invaded so to speak. And at night when you’re on foot patrol, especially in the woods, sometimes it, you know it would jog. And you’d end up realizing that you, you were in the middle of that. And you’d have to beat feet out before, before they saw you. Beyond that between that and the fence, there was, there was these, monuments that were erected by the Kingdom of Bavaria in the 1800s with pewter plaques on them that demarked the Bavarian line. And then the next thing was the fence. JD: I’m trying to think, so it’d be Bavaria and what Thuringia would be the, the state across from you? BL: Thuringia. 14:34: PC: I don’t know, I didn’t look at the other side to see what was. BL: Are you talking about Thur-, Thuringia? JD: In English it’s Thuringia, in German it’d be Thuringia yeah. 14:47: PC: No idea what the state, what the other state was. I just knew that was not the place I wanted to be. JD: So there wasn’t a physical fence between you and the border itself. There’d be a fence on the other side of the border. 14:56: PC: Yeah. Yeah. JD: And I think when most people think of the border, they imagine the Berlin Wall which is obviously, just one tiny little bit of it. So most of it would have been this frontier, sort of. 15:06: PC: Yeah it’s all frontier. JD: Right. Did they have watch posts and stuff like that up on their end? 15:10: PC: Yeah they had towers, ea-, each with you know they had. Each one was in view of each other so there wasn’t any, any gaps. JD: Really? 15:24: PC: The windows were, were mirrored. So you, you couldn’t tell if there was somebody in there or not. You just. And so we never knew if they were staffed or not. The fence itself was about ten feet tall. And it was, it looked like chain-link. But if somebody went up and grabbed it, it collapsed. And it was all razor. Cut their fingers off. You had anti-personnel mines at head, waist, and foot level, on every cross post. I don’t remember any razor-wire or anything topping it. I guess they didn’t need that. Then you had the plowed strip. Which was mined. JD: And this was how they, you would see footprints really easily if it was. 16:17: PC: Yeah, yeah. And then also so they could do mine maintenance easily. And you had another fence similar. And then on the other side you had, trip wires with flares and dog runs, with German Shepherds on a cable. JD: And this is all within the East German side. 16:38: PC: Yeah. JD: So there was nothing like this set up on the, on the West German side. Just the, just the demarcation that you’re a kick away from the border. 16:44: PC: The only thing on the Western side was us and, the German, the German border. JD: You know what the East Germans called the Berlin Wall? Do you remember? The Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart. 16:57: PC: There you go. JD: Yeah. Keepin’ people in and keepin’ fascists out. Apparently. 17:02: PC: Yeah. ‘Cause of my clearance I never could go to Berlin. So yeah. JD: Oh okay. Interesting. In your time in Germany, were you billeted in the population or were you on base? 17:13: PC: We were, our caserne in Bad Kissingen was, was on a hill right in the middle of town. JD: Was it a, a German barracks? 17:22: PC: Yeah it had been in World War. It had been constructed in, 1800s and from World War I on, it had been a German hospital. JD: Oh okay. So it was never a Nazi barracks. Was a hospital built underneath. 17:36: PC: Yeah. Yeah it’s a, Bad Kissingen has a, mineral water. Is a cure town. JD: Any town that says the “Bad” whatever is one of those. 17:45: PC: Yeah. JD: Bad means Bath. BL: There’s another, interview that I had that talked about that town. But in World War II I think. JD: Yeah. BL: I had a question about your interactions with the German patrol, border patrol. I mean, can you talk about that experience? 18:07: PC: We, we actually had a military intelligis-, intelligence detachment that did most of the liaisons. And what they basically did is coordinate patrol, so that, we weren’t being redundant. But face to face, I think the only time is if we found a, a border crosser. And we’d call back and they, they’d come to pick ‘em up. JD: You would send people back? 18:37: PC: No, we would turn ‘em over to the German authorities. JD: The, the West German? 18:42: PC: Yes. JD: Oh okay, okay sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, back to the East. [chuckle] BL: So these border, crossers they were able to get through the, all the defenses obviously. Were they injured? 18:54: PC: A lot, a lot of the times yeah. BL: Were there families? Or were they usually individuals? 18:59: PC: I, I would say 90% were smugglers. JD: Really? 19:04: PC: Yeah. JD: Who made a living going back and forth. 19:06: PC: Yeah. JD: Smuggling what, in particular? Goods? 19:09: PC: Yeah. Any kind of Western goods. JD: Yeah. 19:11: PC: A lot of Levi’s. JD: Yeah? 19:13: PC: Yeah. JD: Yup. Ca-, do you remember any, any of those experiences in particular, the events of how you found the person and what, what they were doing and how they reacted or whatever? 19:25: PC: I don’t know if I can go into that. I think it’s one of my non-disclosures. JD: Oh okay. BL: Oh. JD: No worries. Did a lot of these guys speak English? 19:34: PC: Almost every one of ‘em. JD: Of, of the border crossers? Or the Germans in general that you messed with. 19:39: PC: Yeah English was the standard language. JD: Yeah. Interesting. I was impressed they got through the border like that. 19:46: PC: It was amazing. JD: Yeah. 19:48: PC: I always figured they paid somebody. JD: Entirely possible yeah. 19:52: PC: Instead of, instead of trying to rough it. JD: Did you ever know of or see any of these border crossers actually like get caught or get shot or something like that? 20:03: PC: Saw a lot of injured ones. Mine would go or somethin’, blow a foot off. JD: Wow. So this was a, a fairly frequent occurrence? 20:12: PC: Yeah more often than you would think. JD: Wow. So you, I, I guess by the time you got there that you knew were somewhat, prepared or trained or, or explained this is what to do in this situation ‘cause it’s gonna happen. 20:21: PC: No. JD: Oh no. No it just happened one day. [chuckle] 20:23: PC: Somethin’ you learn. JD: Yeah? 20:24: PC: Yeah. JD: Interesting. 20:25: PC: Usually the, the, the N.C.O.s would, they’d, they’d brief us before our first, you know before we’d go and deploy and talk about the different types of patrols, what we’d be doin’, what we’d see, what we needed to avoid you know. JD: So, would you characterize most of your involvement when you’re, when you’re forward deployed up, up to the border, as foot patrol or were, were you in the tanks ever or? 20:52: PC: You wouldn’t bring a tank within a k-, a k-, kilometer of the border. We did some patrols in, A.P.C.s, but most of time it was a jeep. JD: Yeah. 21:04: PC: And you’d go to check point to check point. And then once in a while, if, if you had made somebody mad they’d, put you on foot patrol. Usually in the mountainous part of it. JD: Yeah? [chuckle] 21:17: PC: Yeah. JD: How long of the, of the border were you guys responsible for? 21:20: PC: I wanna say like a hundred and fifty klicks. JD: Really? 21:23: PC: Yeah. We were, the place we were at was called the, the parrot’s beak. Like I said it was just s-, south of the, the Fulda Gap. And when I saw a hundred and fifty klicks, probably width-wise it was only sixty. But it’s because yeah, yeah. JD: Gotcha. So there’d be a lot of border to walk. Was there any crossing points in, in y’alls area? 21:47: PC: One. JD: Yeah. 21:48: PC: One and I, I don’t think I ever saw a vehicle go through it. JD: Really? 21:52: PC: Yeah. JD: Do you remember the name of the cross point? Or did it have a name? 21:55: PC: I can’t remember but our O.P. was, our main O.P. was on a hill just, just to the west of it. JD: Was it a crossing point on a already established road, that the border happened to go across? 22:09: PC: Yeah it was a nice road that nobody ever drove. JD: Right. 21:11: PC: Yeah. JD: Right. I always thought it would be interesting to do a project on some of those towns that were, within walking distance of each other, for centuries and then all of sudden got that border and then have no contact with what. BL: Talking about borderlands there. JD: Yeah exactly yeah. I almost did a dissertation on that actually. 22:29: PC: Yeah we had, we had one that we could observe. JD: Really? 22:32: PC: Yeah, and you never saw much activity. JD: Really? Did you all assume that people were basically kept back from the town or they’d been depopulated or? 22:40: PC: I think depopulated. Yeah. A lot of farm land too so you’d see a tractor out there you know but. Nothing like the West German side where, I mean right up to the edge of the border you got plenty of activity. It’s obvious. JD: Right. 22:55: PC: Yeah. JD: Did you, did you operate or coordinate or were you involved in any of the coordinated operations that the NATO did? I can’t remember what was goin’ on. There was, Able Archer was, it was before that. But any of the big movement type stuff? 23:11: PC: Just Reforge. JD: Reforger. That’s it! Able Archer was right before it, Reforger. 23:15: PC: Yeah we did re-, a couple Reforgers while I was there in, my two years. Always in winter. JD: Really? 23:23: PC: Battle of the Bulge conditions. JD: Okay. And when this was intentional because you thought the Soviets would come across in winter time or, they just wanted to do that? 23:31: PC: I wasn’t a general, I was just. BL: [chuckle] JD: [chuckle] Doin’ what you’re told. 23:35: PC: I figured they’d put us out there at the worst possible time so. And they managed to do that. It’s like I never went to Oktoberfest. We were always in the field during Oktoberfest. JD: No kidding. Geez. 23:47: PC: How was that planned? JD: Right. What a coincidence. BL: Were, were there any times that you can recall that do you remember that you or your unit, were, had ti-, had heightened tensions for whatever reason? 24:03: PC: Oh yeah. We’d go on alert all the time. BL: All the time. Do you remember if there was any larger reasons for that? Or was it? 24:14: PC: When you’re, when you’re up there, you’re sort of disconnected from the news. So I, I, I really can’t say but we, we took every single one very seriously. JD: Oh, so they never got monotony. 24:25: PC: And, and we’d go do war loads. The tanks already had, all the big bullets on ‘em. We kept ‘em on and, and maintained ‘em. But, you knew it was pretty serious when you went to get all your little bullets. Your machine gun stuff, your grenades, all that. If they were, if they were taking the time to do that, it was something serious. JD: How long did it take you, take to get up tank fully ready? 25:52: PC: I would say from the rear. From Bad Kissingen when we went on alert, within three hours we were in our designated border position fully locked and loaded and ready to go, in the wood line. JD: And you would be, hatches batten-down, the whole bit. 25:09: PC: Yeah. Camouflaged. JD: The tank itself? 25:13: PC: Yeah, we’d get, we’d get out and cut brush behind the tank. And camouflage the fronts and all that to. JD: Right. Do you remember the first time that happened, like the, the excitement or what you felt? 25:28: PC: I had just remember havin’ to haul, you know a Madus, .50 caliber. JD: Okay. 25:33: PC: Well, of course they put our motor pool at the highest point in, in the caserne. And I remember goin’ up icy cobblestones humpin’ a Madus. And it bitin’ into my shoulder and, and it, it just became more of a, a dread. The work was a dread, not maybe goin’ to war. JD: Right, right. Yeah oh gosh, a lot of work to do. BL: How often did you guys have to do that? 26:02: PC: I bet you in my two years we did it, probably seven or eight times. JD: Oh okay. So frequent enough that you, you. 26:12: PC: And a cou-, and a couple of times you’d be goin’ to get your, your ammo. ‘Cause our ammo was, was in a separate depo from the caserne, and they’d call it off before that. And then other times, you’d go out there and you’d spend three days out there. JD: Wow. BL: And you don’t recall certain inst-, instances that this could have been the reason for you going out there? 26:36: PC: No, we were, so disconnected from the news. JD: Intentionally? Or just bein’ 20 years old and not really? 26:43: PC: Exactly. Exactly. And whatever free time you got, you were busy doin’ other things. JD: Right. 26:48: PC: Pursuing other, interests. 26:51: PC: Yeah let’s talk about that a little bit. What was it like interacting with the, with the German population? How did they, react to you and, and what were relationships like? 27:01: PC: Well during the time they, they were, working on deploying the M.X. Cruise Missile. So you had, we had a lot of protests. And things like that. JD: In Bad Kissingen too? 27:17: PC: Yeah. S-, some. Not a lot. JD: Would they just come to the barracks or were they in the city square or? 27:21: PC: City square. They, the only, our border camp we, we, one Christmas Eve, had a, had a crowd, a group come and we, we all bayoneted up and got ready to do some serious crowd control. And then they, fizzled away when they saw the show of force. JD: Okay. 27:45: PC: The closer to the border you, you got, they adored us. ‘Cause they could see what, what, the alternative was. And I had a German girlfriend for my last year and a half that, her parents lived eh, just outside the 1-K. And, they were always very supportive. JD: They own a farm or in a village or something like that? 28:13: PC: No, he was a business man. They were pretty wealthy. Real nice house. I mean, standard of living there is, even th-, back in the eighties was wi-, unbelievable. Yeah. JD: So how would you meet, like in the case of your girlfriend, how, how did you guys meet? 28:32: PC: I think I met her through a, a buddy G.I. that, that, that had a, had a girlfriend, she was a friend of, if I remember right. A lot of us, I didn’t, but a lot of guys lived off, off, even though they, they weren’t. They weren’t given a per diem or anything to live off post, they did anyway. JD: Just got an apartment somewhere. 28:52: PC: Yeah. JD: Or rented a room someplace. 28:53: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. Just, so they could have a more normal? 28:57: PC: Well I had a, a, a, a couple of friends that rented rooms over a, a, a, guest house. JD: Ah. 29:04: PC: So they could be. JD: Place to eat and get somethin’ to drink. 29:07: PC: They could be closer to the, to the fun yeah. JD: Yeah. Were there rules in place in terms of, of being involved with the civilian population or they just kind of let you guys, as long as you don’t break any laws, do your thing? 29:19: PC: Yeah. I, I don’t remember any, anything except you know they had courtesy patrols out so if you were out fighting or anything like that, they’d scoop you up and bring you back. But. As long as, I think the only rule, biggest rules were you know, black market. Don’t use your ration stamps, don’t give ‘em to, to nationals. I think that was the biggest rule. JD: Was that much of a deal by that point in the eighties, I mean if the economy had long since rebounded. 29:49: PC: Oh no, the, but the German mark was. JD: Still. 29:52: PC: Yeah, it was in horrible shape. Yeah we could, we could go out and have a, a weekend of revelry for like $25 bucks. JD: Really? 30:08: PC: Yeah. JD: And were you guys paid, or I guess you weren’t paid in marks, you’d be paid in dollars then, or did they give you? 30:13: PC: Your choice. JD: Really? 30:14: PC: Yeah. Your choice. JD: But everything, everybody took dollars? The stores and. 30:19: PC: Oh no I ju-, oh yeah. Th-, they, they actually liked. JD: I bet. 30:23: PC: Yeah, they actually liked American currency. JD: So you’d go in and there’d be two prices for things. You know, if you’re gonna pay with marks it’s this. 30:31: PC: There would be the German price and then you ask. JD: Interesting. 30:36: PC: And you do the conversion in your head and figure out whether it’s a deal or not. I carried both. I always carried both. ‘Cause sometimes it, the mark would actually be a better deal. JD: Really? 30:48: PC: Yeah. JD: Wow. So everybody’s sort of had to have the very basic understanding of, of, you know currency. 30:53: PC: Conversion. JD: Conversions. A little bit of understanding of economics. Interesting. What about West German soldiers, the military, did you guys get involved with them at all? 31:02: PC: Eh, not really. I mean, I think we did some joint exercises and stuff, but there, there wasn’t a whole bunch of co-mingling, going on. JD: In terms of the exercises, did, did they seem to be able to, to, to carry their end of the deal or, or were they su-, sufficiently equipped and all that? 31:18: PC: Oh yeah. JD: Yeah. Did you ever, think about the fact that the, so many Americans were there, defending more than just Germany itself, but also defending Germany and there weren’t nearly as many military troops, in, in comparison. I, I, I guess if you looked at the numbers, it probably be very drastic, the, the, the difference. 31:37: PC: Right. No, not, with the knowledge of, what it was takin’ to reconstruct Europe. It was still in the eighties. You know, it was only, less than forty years. No. JD: So not really stuck out? Yeah. 31:57: PC: And we, i-, that, brings me back, we were on a road march once, when you’re talkin’ about interactions with the civilians. And this old man, must have been a Nazi at the time or something, came out. A tank in front of me, and took his cane and just started beatin’ on it. On the, on the tank in front of me. Yeah. I just remembered that. JD: I always read that, and even to this day when you’re operating with armor, inevitably you’re gonna tear somethin’ up. ‘Cause you’re in a residential, civilian place and not out on a range. That somebody’s going behind, handing out slips for people to get reimbursed for their field being destroyed and their fences, now was that pretty common? 32:41: PC: Yeah. Yeah. I managed to, destroy about half of a, four hundred year old fountain, avoiding a, a car that, I was gonna run over a car, when we were road marchin’ through a town. BL: Oh man. 32:57: PC: And you should’ve seen the look on the, ‘cause it was in the town square, and all the people. But yeah, I tore it up. But, it’s a choice between life. JD: Right. Or the, or the fountain. 33:07: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 33:09: PC: And I’m sure somebody gave them a pretty big check for that. JD: Yeah, I bet. 33:14: PC: But like if you cut a tree down. You know like if we did any forest operations. They wouldn’t just pay for the value of the tree as it was today. They’d pay for the value of the tree as it would be in the future. JD: Really? 33:28: PC: So. JD: A lot of money was spent. BL: Wow. 33:30: PC: Yeah, oh yeah. JD: Did, did you guys have. I, I mean I guess it was the S.O.P. in terms of if, if you gotta go somewhere. You know don’t kill somebody, but otherwise it. The tank’s gonna have a difficult time anyway so just choose the least, pa-, path of least resistance but expect it to destroy something? 33:47: PC: Hmm-hmm. JD: Really? 33:48: PC: Yeah. Took a tank across a, a 60-ton tank across a 5-ton bridge. JD: Really? 33:54: PC: Yeah. It held! JD: Was it just [sigh], we’ve got no other way, let’s just try this out? 33:59: PC: It was just, yeah. Short, stone bridge. The, the creek that it, that was there, the, the slopes were too steep to, to span it so. I was on the company commander’s tank. He said, “Do it.” Yeah. JD: There you go. 34:19: PC: Yeah. JD: It held. 34:21: PC: Yeah. Go. JD: What was it like being in the Abrams seeing since you transitioned to it when you were actually in country? Was this a, was there a big like moral boost going from the M60 to the Abrams or, or were you feel? 34:32: PC: Now, now, now you have to remember, my, my entire operational experience with the Abrams was drivin’ it about fifty feet, and putting it on a Lowboy. JD: Or you mean the M60? 34:43: PC: Or the M60. JD: Yeah, okay, yeah. 34:44: PC: Yeah. JD: But you trained with it. 34:46: PC: But I trained with it. JD: So you were already familiar with it. 34:48: PC: Yeah. JD: Was it, was it pretty significant upgrade? 34:50: PC: Oh yeah. JD: Yeah. 34:51: PC: Yeah. JD: Did you feel safer, more confident? 34:54: PC: Yeah. Yeah I would say. But the tank that I was assigned that I did the one driving thing. It had been in, some conflict somewhere, but it had actually had spaulding on the inside where a, a round had, had, a, a, R.P.G. or somethin’ had hit. Right by the gunner’s head. And they welded a plate, right there. JD: Wow. And then the shiny new Abrams. 35:22: PC: Yeah. JD: I know now they’ve, they’ve had an enormous amount of, of upgrades and things like that. But even at the time this was incredibly cutting edge. I think you can argue today it’s still the main battle tank in the world. Did you guys have the infrared stuff and thermal sights and all that stuff by that? 35:37: PC: Thermal. JD: Yeah? 35:39: PC: Yeah. JD: Were you usin’ depleted uranium rounds? 35:42: PC: Yup. JD: Wow. What was it? I, I guess those were always on to-, on the tank, you said you guys never really had to fool with it so it was loaded once and never messed with. 35:49: PC: No we pulled ‘em out on a regular basis. Cleaned ‘em. JD: For maintenance? 34:53: PC: Yeah. JD: This is complete ignorance here. Do you have to have special procedures for dealing with depleted uranium rounds like that? No, just. 36:02: PC: It’s just metal. Yeah. JD: How heavy are these things? 36:06: PC: Very. JD: Yeah. Can one guy lift, lift a shell? 36:09: PC: The loader has to. JD: Oh right, right. So it’s, but it’s a pretty small motion inside the tank itself right? 36:16: PC: Uh. You pull it out. You gotta flip it. And then. JD: Fifty pounds? 36:22: PC: No, heavier. JD: Really? 36:24: PC: Probably seventy. JD: From a seated position? 36:28: PC: Oh no you stood. You, you’d stand at the side of the, the breach. I always did. JD: Inside the tank, wow. 36:34: PC: Yeah. Yeah keep the seat flipped up and use it as a backrest as it, as my fulcrum when I was loading. JD: Dang. Can people mess their backs up doin’ that stuff? 36:47: PC: We were all young. JD: I was gonna say, at, at that age, it’s not a big deal. [chuckle] 36:50: PC: And they were the lightest. JD: Really? 36:53: PC: The heat rounds and high explosives were a lot heavier. They were probably like ninety. JD: Oh my gosh. Did you guys do any, range practice while you were in country? 37:02: PC: Hmm-hmm. JD: Yeah. I imagine a long way away from the border. 37:06: PC: Grafenwöhr. JD: Okay. 37:07: PC: Yeah. Grafenwöhr and, Hohenfels. JD: Okay. 37:15: PC: Always in the winter. JD: Yeah. Tanks were heated though right? 37:19: PC: When the heater worked. JD: When the heater worked. 37:21: PC: Yeah. It was a diesel heater. JD: Okay, wow really? 37:24: PC: Yeah. And I know one Reforger it went out on us and couldn’t get parts so we froze for. JD: The heat from the engine wasn’t enough to do anything for you? 37:34: PC: We all slept on the back deck with the heat runnin’. With the engine runnin’ yeah. But yeah it wouldn’t. It, the inside of the tank was. JD: An icebox I would. 37:42: PC: Coffin. JD: Yeah. I, I’ve heard tons of stories about you know, armored guys in World War II that, that had like a little, I, I think, a little heater mounted on the inside of it, the heater would almost never worked. And they always basically would keep the tank running and they’d say they need some kind of warmth. 37:59: PC: Yeah. And if you stood behind the tank it was real nice ‘cause it had that, that turbine engine. Yeah, we burnt down trees. JD: Really? 38:08: PC: In the middle of the night, you’d back up next to a tree and not realize it. And a couple of hours later. JD: Go up in flames? 38:16: PC: Yeah. JD: Wow. Dang. 38:18: PC: Used to heat our C-rations back there. JD: Just put ‘em over the exhaust? 38:22: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 38:23: PC: And you, you had to get ‘em off within about five minutes or the cans’d explode. JD: That’s [chuckle] that’s crazy. Did you feel you, were well-equipped for winter there? In terms of like your physical, and personal gear? 38:36: PC: Neh. No. JD: No? Just ‘cause military’s cheap or? 38:41: PC: It was just, it was standard issue but. JD: Was it winter gear though? 38:46: PC: Yeah. JD: Okay. 38:47: PC: No they’d give us winter gear. JD: Like pack boots. 38:49: PC: Yeah and, and like a parka shell and stuff like that but. We were always cold, I was always cold. JD: Coming from L.A. I imagine. 38:59: PC: Well, when I was livin’ in the high desert we’d get snow every, every winter but, that was a whole different, a whole different type a, type a weather there. JD: Yeah. Yeah much wetter than. Yeah, I grew up in eastern Colorado and it’s, it’s much drier climate so the cold down here even, with the humidity, it doesn’t have to be nearly as cold to feel colder. 39:22: PC: Yeah. JD: Did, did the tanks always have metal tracks? Or did you ever do the rubber tracks? 39:28: PC: We only used ru-, rubber. JD: Only used rubber. 39:31: PC: Yeah. We, we had steel, war-time tracks, that we’d practice putting on every now and then. But, no. Any, anything we did was, was just with the rubber pads. JD: Because you had to do so much road. 39:44: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. I was gonna say that’ll. Tear up the road. 39:45: PC: Tear up the in, infra, infrastructure. Yeah. JD: Right. So were you expected, when you went on alert, were you expected to switch out to war time? Or was this one of those things they would do eventually if they went actually into war. 39:55: PC: With the remnants of our unit. Yeah. JD: Wow. 40:00: PC: I mean unless. I mean unless it got so bad that they knew ahead of time that, “Okay. This is, this is goin’ down.” Then we would’ve probably, put ‘em on. But it never got to that point. JD: But even with the rubber tracks I imagine they still did a whole bunch of damage on cobblestone streets. 40:16: PC: Hmm-hmm. JD: Yeah. What was the infrastructure like in general? Was there a lot of paving or was it pretty, pretty old or? 40:22: PC: Eh. Autobans were, better than what we’ve got, what we’ve got today. Inner-course of towns and cities, yeah, it’d go back to cobblestone. JD: Right. 40:34: PC: Yeah. JD: Was it, were you actually able to maneuver through these old towns and villages and stuff like that where the streets were? 40:40: PC: You had to. JD: Right. 40:41: PC: Most cases there was no bypass or anything like that so. JD: So straight line, don’t move deter it. 40:46: PC: Yeah you’re goin’, you’re goin’ right through the city square. JD: Yeah. 40:49: PC: Yeah, in a lot of cases. JD: Un-, unless you run over the fountain I guess. 40:54: PC: Yeah. JD: [chuckle] 40:55: PC: Yeah, real tight. Real tight. JD: Would there be, somebody out way ahead, sort of in a jeep or something like that to get, ci-, civilian traffic off the road? There’s no way you guys can do two lanes on that small stuff. 41:07: PC: We, we tangle with traffic all the time. JD: Really? 41:10: PC: I mean there’d be jeeps there but you know. JD: Nobody would. 41:12: PC: No, ‘cause it was. For the Germans it was business as usual. You know? Yeah we’d always be tangling with, civilian vehicles. I remember one time we were headed to the border and this lady tried to pass a, a, one of the tanks. And. She clipped the sprocket, at the back. And it ripped the entire side of her car off and rolled it up in a little ball. JD: Really? 41:41: PC: And she pulled over. [imitates woman’s face] BL: [chuckle] 41:43: PC: She wasn’t hurt or anything like that. BL: Oh man. JD: So, so an incidence like, like that does the military still pay for? 41:49: PC: Who knows? JD: Just keep on goin’. 41:51: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 41:52: PC: Yeah we keep on goin’ let somebody else clean it up. JD: Really? 41:55: PC: Yeah. JD: That’s gotta be, kind of, liberating to be able to feel, “Eh.” Come back to the States and you certainly can’t drive off. Did you see any sort of, legacy of the Second World War in terms of, of, of like destruction or was it obvious that it was there or, or was, things seemed to clearly moved on? 42:18: PC: Um. Uh. Vividly remember Nuremberg. JD: Oh okay. 42:25: PC: Once you got around the cathedral and all that you could see the, all the shrapnel marks on the, on the older buildings and stuff. So yeah there was some. There was some. JD: Did, did you get to go to Nuremberg much? I would imagine that’d be on leave. 42:38: PC: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. JD: Yeah. All right, cool. Did you ever make it to Munich? 42:42: PC: Made it to Munich. Yeah. JD: That’s a cool town. 42:44: PC: Oh yeah. JD: Yeah. Did you guys have any sort of cultural training before you went? Or were things so westernized they seemed to just, get in just fine? 42:53: PC: Actually we had, it was called HeadStart believe it or not, that, that trained us on local culture. I think for about the first week I was there. JD: Do you remember anything about it? 43:09: PC: I dated the teacher, I remember that, for a while. JD: So was it local? 43:14: PC: English lady. JD: Okay. 43:15: PC: Yeah. JD: Like an, like an ex-pat of some sort or was she permanently living there? 43:19: PC: Uh. Never thought to ask. JD: [chuckle] Wasn’t, wasn’t necessary. 43:24: PC: She was a contractor. JD: I gotcha. Yeah. Were there a lot of American families around the base? 43:30: PC: Oh yeah. Yeah there was a lot, a lot of folks that had, had brought their families over. And there were guys that would extend and extend and stay and li-, and almost live in Germany. JD: Right. Did you have that option? 43:44: PC: Had that option and then made the mistake of sayin’, “No I wanna come back to the United States, for the rest of my tour.” JD: Was it a four year enlistment? 43:51: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. So you’re first, first two years you did in Germany and then the next two back. 43:55: PC: Yeah. In Fort Hood. JD: Fort Hood. 43:58: PC: Yeah, First Cav. JD: Is that what got you to Texas? In terms of? 44:01: PC: Yes. Yeah, I met my first wife. We went out, back out to California for a while but by then, man you couldn’t buy a house for. A shack was costin’ like three, four hundred thousand dollars in the, in the eighties. JD: Wow. 44:17: PC: And, after a couple of years, I, did, I did a lawn care business for a while, just on my own. Working for myself. But, I saw we were never gonna get ahead and it just, the expenses were so crazy. And she got homesick so we came back. JD: [coughs] Excuse me. When you left Germany, what, what did you miss most about the States I guess, that you were really looking forward to coming home? 44:49: PC: Culture. Just culture. It’s. You miss so much that you don’t realize that it’s just goin’ on. Whether it’s music, movies, whatever. You know I had to see, I had to see. I think it was the, third Star Wars. I had to see it in German. And. JD: They didn’t dub it? 45:10: PC: They didn’t dub it. I, I mean stuff like that that just. You just, you know after a while you get homesick, you miss it. I regret it to, to this day that I did come back though. And probably would’ve been a career soldier if I had stayed there. JD: Yeah. 45:28: PC: Yeah. JD: At what point did you start realizing that you made a wrong, or may have made a bad decision? 45:34: PC: Eh, probably within my first year at Fort Hood. JD: Really that quickly? 45:38: PC: Yeah when, when there’s no mission, it’s, it’s a whole different. It’s a bureaucracy. There’s no. Everything’s nitpicking and political and all that instead of, “Hey, we gotta go out there and do it.” JD: Right. 45:53: Yeah. JD: Did you have the option of, of if you reenlisted to go back? 45:57: PC: Yeah. JD: But that was, you didn’t want to reenlist? 46:00: PC: No because I knew I’d reenlist. I’d go. Sooner or later I’d have to rotate back stateside. They won’t let you stay forever. So. JD: Was the reenlistment just another four years? Or could you do shorter or was it a longer deal? 46:13: PC: I think they offered me. I think they offered me six years staff sergeant and like $30, $30,000. JD: Bonus? 46:23: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. Pretty good deal in the eighties. 46:26: PC: Yeah. It was, it was tempting but, not that tempting. JD: What rank were you by the time you got out? 46:32: PC: E-5. JD: E-5. 46:33: PC: Sergeant. JD: Sergeant. Yeah. 46:34: PC: Yeah. JD: Was that a pretty big jump for you going from, to going to non-commission officer? 46:39: PC: No not really ‘cause, actually, I went through one through, promotable in Germany and then act-, actually gone to the N.C.O. Board and got approved for E-5 there. So there was no, “Hey my buddies, all of a sudden I’m you’re boss.” JD: Right. 46:59: PC: That didn’t happen because I, I, I transferred. JD: Right. You said you, you ended up a tank commander by the time you were done. 47:08: PC: Hmm-hmm. JD: Is that always a N.C.O. position? 47:11: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 47:12: PC: Yeah. JD: And then, the platoon leader, do they ride, at that time did they ride in the tanks still? 47:18: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. So they, I guess be the driver? Wait so, actually back up, break down the roles real quick. 47:24: PC: Okay. In a platoon there’s four tanks. JD: Right. 47:28: PC: One’s controlled by the platoon sergeant. One’s controlled by the platoon leader. And then the other two are, are buck sergeant or staff sergeants, that are tank commanders. JD: And then the jobs within the tank itself, you’ve got a driver, loader, gunner. 47:45: PC: And tank commander. JD: Tank commander. Okay. 47:47: PC: Yeah. JD: Okay so, I guess what’s the role of the commander. Are, are, are you, are you the guy on the. If you’re not driving the vehicle, you’re not shooting anything, you’re the one directing everything. So you, with the optics and everything like that. 47:59: PC: Yeah you’re, you’re the one directing the tank. Either with your head out the ha-, the hatch or looking through the scopes and stuff like that. You’re the one that sees a target. You slew the turret. JD: Okay. 48:12: PC: To within the gunner’s view. JD: And then the gunner. 48:15: PC: And, and then you, you command fire you know. JD: Does the gunner line up on the target like specifically or do you, does, does the tank commander? 48:23: PC: The gunner does the, the final alignment. JD: Right. 48:26: PC: Tank commander’s just supposed to get ‘em, get it into his field of view. Where he names the target. And then the gunner identifies it, aims, lases for range, fire. JD: Gotcha. In, in World War II after, to the spring I was actually able to interview some of my uncles, mates I guess. The guys he fought with. They, they talked a lot about when they’re, in combat or going anywhere. They left the hatch, hatch open as much as possible, particularly for the driver or the commander I guess. So they could see because, the, they didn’t have any these sights or any of the little super-thick bullet-proof la-, glass little visor things and that was only for. 49:04: PC: Yeah they’re like vision blocks. JD: Yeah. Yeah. So, he was saying that when they went into combat, they always were, had the hatch up for the commander ‘cause it was just too hard not to. Because of how difficult the vision was and you just, you could just really just, handle yourself so much better. But obviously way more dangerous. But I guess with the technology of the Abrams that would be completely unallowed to, go into combat with, with your hatches up. 49:30: PC: Yeah. Yeah and, the vision still wasn’t that great even though you had 360 on the. You had vision blocks all the way around. But you usually had a bunch of stuff piled up on the back of the turrets so you’re not gonna be able to see behind you. And you, you st-, you still can’t see that well. The Abrams had. There was hatch open, hatch closed, and then there was like a curtain, where you could lift it up where it had a little crack. And then the hatch was over you but, but you get a, a, a free space, about that big. [motions with hands] And it, it, and, when we were doing combat sim usually I, that’s, that’s about how I’d do it. JD: For the tank commander? 50:14: PC: Yeah. JD: Was the loader able to see anything? 50:17: PC: He had a vision block. JD: A vision block. 50:19: PC: Yeah. JD: So everybody had a vision block at some point. 50:21: PC: Yeah. JD: And the gunner I guess had, had an actual sightseeing thing and everything. 50:23: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. Right so coming home, what did you miss most about Germany? The food, everybody says the food. 50:33: PC: The food, the beer, the people. JD: Yeah. 50:36: PC: Yeah. The history. JD: Yeah. 50:42: PC: Fort Hood is not the, the most beautiful place either. So being in Bavaria and then going to, central-west Texas is. JD: Did you bring anything back specifically like a memento or souvenir that really like meant a lot to you or? 51:04: PC: Can’t say I did. JD: Yeah. 51:08: PC: No. JD: Have you been back since? 51:10: PC: I have not been back to Europe since. JD: We talked about that didn’t we? 51:13: PC: Yeah. JD: Earlier yeah. 51:14: PC: Planning on it but. JD: Do you think you’d recognize much? 51:19: PC: Oh no. I look like on Google Earth the, the old places. JD: Yeah. 51:24: PC: Like my caserne in Bad Kissingen is gone. It’s a housing track now. The border camp is forest. It’s gone. JD: All grown up and everything sure. 51:35: PC: Yeah. JD: You know going on thirty years ago now. 51:38: PC: Yeah. JD: So, you went to. You guys went back to California for a little bit came back to Texas. How did you end up in College Station? 51:47: PC: My wife got a job with, at the time the, the local cable company—Cable Time—as a, advertisement producer. And she, she was my girlfriend, but I followed her down here and, and. Went to Blinn for a while and then. We got married, she got pregnant, I needed to get a job. And then started working here, as a garbage collector. JD: Wow. Worked your way all the way up. 52:20: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. With A&M’s sort of connection to the Corps and the military and things like that, did, was there anything specific about College Station that was different? I mean Fort Hood obviously, Killeen tons of military around and, was this. How would you characterize this I guess compared to like being in L.A. or places in California and all that, in terms of the way they deal with veterans in the military? 52:40: PC: You know I’m so disconnected from the military now. I pretty much, I enjoyed it. I would do it again, but I don’t self-identify as a veteran. I just don’t. I mean it, it’s not me. I, it, it’s, it’s part of my history. JD: Right. You were what, twenty-two when you were done? 53:01: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 53:02: Yeah and. I-, it’s there but, but. I don’t go to veterans’ events. I don’t, of course don’t do the V.F.W., I can’t. I’m, I’m a peacetime Cold War era. So I don’t qualify. JD: Really? The V. Or I guess you had to be uniform for the V.F.W. 53:22: PC: Yeah. JD: Huh. 53:24: PC: My dad was in Germany. And because it got, labeled as part of the Vietnam War even though they just had advisors there at the time. Yeah he’s a, he’s a V.F.W.’er, but, but I’m not. My oldest boy is ‘cause he went to, Afghanistan. JD: Yeah. 53:42: PC: But I’m not. [chuckle] JD: Well talk about that with your son. What branch was he in? 53:48: PC: Army. JD: Or is, is he still in service? 53:50: PC: Yeah, reserve. JD: Reserve okay. 53:52: PC: Yeah. He’s, the engineering, reserve unit up in Bryan. JD: Oh gotcha. BL: Hmm. 53:57: PC: Yeah. JD: So when, I, I assume, how old’s he? 54:03: PC: Just turned 27. JD: Okay so 9/11 generation for sure then. 54:08: PC: Yeah. JD: So that meant, did he, did he join up because of 9/11. 54:10: PC: [Sigh] No he joined up for the same reason I did. Lack of direction. JD: Yeah. 54:16: PC: Yeah. JD: And, and what was your advice for, for him that. 54:19: PC: Not to go combat arms. That was my advice. You do. JD: And what’s he do? 54:23: PC: You do not. Well no, he didn’t. JD: Oh okay. 54:25: PC: He actually listened to me. My dad had told me not to do that. And I, didn’t listen to him. And when I explained, what that meant, he understood. So he actually went I.T., communications. JD: Right, yeah. Super translatable to the civilian world. 54:42: PC: Yeah. BL: So what did he do in Afghanistan? 54:45: PC: They were at Forward Operating Base, Sharana. Which is in the southern part of Afghanistan. Out, out in the bo-, pretty much in the boonies. And he, just did all the communications work. Dug a lot of trenches for fiber. When, when he was there. And he said that they always like trenchin’ because if, if they had a mortar attack or anything like that, they got a pre-made hole, to go into. JD: Oh there you go. 55:16: PC: And it’s funny, there was no, American combat troops, at that base. It was all Polish. JD: Yeah. 55:26: PC: And the Poles would go out patrolling and get tore up and all that. JD: Wow. BL: Really? 55:31: PC: Yeah. JD: So, are there any similarities between what he’s told you about his experiences in the military in the armed, particularly that, that you re-, relate to? Or was it really just completely changed do you think? 55:41: PC: No it was very similar to Germany in that, once you got a mission, you know, all the B.S. goes away and as long as the mission gets done, you can pretty much do anything you want. JD: Yeah. 55:55: PC: You know? It’s not all about, spit shine and polish and all that, it’s results. JD: Huh. 56:04: PC: Yeah. JD: Did you have anything else? Just as an aside. Are you, are you surprised the Abrams still the main battle tank? 56:13: PC: No. JD: No. 56:15: PC: No. Not at all. JD: It’s that, it’s that impressive of? 56:18: PC: I could teach you how to be an expert gunner. Twenty minutes, thirty minutes at the most. Yeah. JD: So it’s ex-, extremely sophisticated machine that’s very simple to operate. 56:29: PC: I, you could reach out and kill somethin’ three thousand meters away in about fifteen minutes. JD: Wow. 56:36: PC: Yeah. JD: Huh. You know the, when they talk about Iraq in terms of how many tanks have been lost. As far as I understand every single one of ‘ems been either an accident, like a bridge collapsed or something crazy like that. Or pretty significant I.E.D. 56:50: PC: Yeah. JD: You know, there’s nothing else that can really do it. 56:52: PC: And I’ve only heard of one I.E.D. casualty. JD: Yeah. Because it has to be so huge. 56:58: PC: It’d, it’d have to be big. Yeah. JD: Yeah. What’d, you said they’re sixty tons? 57:02: PC: Yeah. JD: Yeah. 57:03: PC: And that’s, non-combat weight. You probably put another five or ten tons with the stuff on ‘em. JD: Yeah and now they’ve got so much more equipment. 57:13: PC: And, and it’s a bigger gun now. When I, when we did it it was a .105 millimeter rifle. JD: That’s almost twenty isn’t it? 57:21: PC: .120 smoothbore. JD: Geez. Well that’s, that’s about all I got. So, thanks a lot. 57:29: PC: Yeah. JD: And.